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Afternoon Brewsky Digs the "New" Receivers

Horns_bullet_mediumFlavor of the Week at running back: Fozzy-CoJo one-two punch. Given that Fozzy Whittaker and Cody Johnson have now gone two straight weeks (two!) as the top two running backs in the rotation, this feature may need to retire prematurely. However, there are always concerns about Fozzy's health (knock on wood) and giving a few carries to Tre' Newton or trying to get the ball to DJ Monroe five times per game could be beneficial to the offense.

Right now, though, Whittaker and Johnson compliment each other well and have each brought their particular strengths to bear against Oklahoma and Missouri. Johnson, in particular, has looked more impressive than ever, running with determination and a combination of quickness and power that Mack Brown obviously appreciates in a running back. Last week, I wrote that he was settling into a role as a fourth-quarter bludgeon, but the first drive against Missouri proved that he can do it early in the game as well, picking up a critical third and short, as well as pounding his way for seven yards after running through the tackles of four Missouri players. Has he even taken a hit in the last two weeks or has he given out all the hits on his tough runs?

As for Whittaker, he's no savior for the running game, but he does have good if not great speed. He's capable as a wide receiver, giving Greg Davis some flexibility in using him in empty sets and he ran harder against Missouri than he did against Oklahoma, seemingly trusting his body more and showing a greater willingness to pick up some tough extra yardage instead of leaving it on the field. The greatest asset that he brings to the table is his vision, allowing him to see the cut-back lanes, a point that isn't exactly a revelation at this point, but is still fundamental to understanding why Whittaker can be more successful in the Texas scheme than other running backs on the roster. It is, perhaps, simply a matter of time before he breaks a long running play.

Star-divide

Horns_bullet_mediumNew receivers pay early dividends. Missouri certainly didn't make it overly difficult for Texas to complete passes and pick up yardage early in the game by playing so far off the Texas receivers, but Marquise Goodwin and Malcolm Williams provided noticable upgrades over James Kirkendoll and John Chiles, while Jordan Shipley seemed to thrive in his return to the slot position, which allows him to catch more short passes, especially screens, while also having to ability to work inside or outside.

Despite predictably dropping an easy pass, Williams also showed that he deserves to be on the field with his combination of size and speed -- he's simply an extremely difficult player to tackle and on several of his catches, it looked like he was only one broken tackle or one step away from breaking a long play. At the end of the night, he totaled five catches for 53 yards and the first time that he's caught that many passes in a game -- against Tech he had only four catches and has had three catches on several occasions. If the coaches continue to play him, it's only a matter of time before he makes the same type of plays he did against Texas Tech last season.

The drops are a problem, but protecting the football is a larger issue, as Williams fumbled once and several times had trouble maintaining possession of the football after the play. Back to the problem with drops -- Greg Davis believes that Williams simply needs to do a better job of consistently attacking the football with his hands because he gets in trouble when he lets the ball get in on him.

In fact, with all the parallels between the Tech game last season and the upcoming trip to Stillwater, the game on Halloween night is the perfect time for Williams to finally fulfill the lofty expectations of Texas fans enamored with his physical gifts. Put the man on the field and get him the football.

Marquise Goodwin had an excellent night blocking, showing not only determination, but also an understanding of how to get up into defenders. Obviously, he doesn't have great size, but it never seemed to hurt him against Missouri, putting on a blocking performance that should have put James Kirkendoll to shame -- Goodwin probably gave better effort in one half than Kirkendoll has blocking all season.

Catching the football four times for 24 yards, Goodwin looked natural as always and didn't seem to have any moments of miscommunication with McCoy as he did at least twice against Oklahoma -- no doubt he is learning quickly, a remarkable ability of the young receiver. The biggest remaining question about Goodwin is just how much shake he has in his hips and if he has the ability to make defenders miss in space, but those questions will surely find some answers in the next several weeks if he continues to receive significant snaps.

Ultimately, it's difficult to separate how much the changes at receiver made a difference and how much of the first-half success was directly a result of Dave Steckel seemingly having little idea of how the stop the Texas passing game. For now, it's enough to say that the results speak for themselves and that players like Williams and Goodwin have a chance to grow with the offense as the season progresses and are major causes for optimism and a renewed belief that this offense can start clicking and put up the gaudy yardage and point-scoring numbers of last season.

Horns_bullet_mediumTracking: the "new" offense. It was probably not the best choice of words to say that the Texas offense was about ready to take a "complete 180," but that description does work in several ways. Last season, the coaches clearly committed to the four-wide offense and when Greg Davis went to EBS in the Texas Tech game, it was because he got scared, flat out. He felt like the offensive line wasn't protecting well, so he basically went to max protection, but the problem was that Smith didn't do well in some of his one-on-one opportunities, giving up a sack and obviously not providing the same threat in the passing game as the extra receiver. Overall, the decision was a net loss for that game.

Defensives started taking away what Texas was doing in four wide and the running game was struggling mightily, so Davis and Mack Brown decided to go back in the other direction, realizing that putting EBS in the game for more snaps would help the running game, particularly with misdirection, counters, and the possibility of using play-action more often and more effectively. The running game has improved with those decisions, but it was perhaps the play-action game that helped the Longhorns the most against Missouri. Starting out the game, Texas used play-action to get the linebacker covering Shipley a step out of position for a big gain and John Chiles had his first success down the field on a play-action pass. It's been some time since the Longhorns have so effectively run play-action fakes consistently in a single game. Perhaps several years -- the lack of a good play-action game has been a serious problem for some time, but at least for one game worked well. That's promising.

The other major change was supposed to be throwing more downfield -- how teams have played the Longhorns with two safeties deep and the effectiveness of the controlled passing game last season lead the coaches to eschew many long passes downfield, despite a player in Malcolm Williams who can go up and get the football using his size and athleticism. On that front, the Longhorns didn't attack down the field much, but they didn't have to because of MIssouri's softer than soft coverage. Brown said on Monday that there were some new wrinkles for the game the coaches didn't have to show because the first half went so well -- those plays could have been longer passes or they could have been new additions to the running game.

For the game, Texas played 11 personnel for around 80% of the snaps. EBS missed two pass blocks and one run block -- not a terrible game by any stretch of the imagination, but the coaching staff needs to be careful about how many times he gets matched up one-on-one on the edge, especially against an extremely talented edge rusher like Aldon Smith -- he wasn't great in those situations last year at about 30 or more pounds heavier and that's just not his strength right now. It's not necessarily his fault, much like last season -- the coaches just need to put him in a situation to more consistently be successful.

In the running game, he didn't dominate, but he was effective, providing a nice extra blocking surface and forcing the linebacker to have one extra gap for which they are responsible. The other aspect, of course, is his pass catching and he caught the only ball thrown at him for nine yards, but the surprising thing was that he was often open in the flat. Wide open. So were many other receivers on the same plays, but if other defenses deal with him the same way, there might be some chances to pick up yardage with EBS in the passing game if the defense isn't going to pay attention to him.

Overall, it's safe to say the offense will continue to head back in the direction of using 11 personnel at roughly the same 80% clip and it should continue benefiting the running game. To make the next step in improving the running game, the individual players on the offensive line need to perform better, but putting EBS on the right side of the line almost exclusively seemed to help Hix, who probably had his best game since ULM. At receiver, the changes clearly made a big difference, at least in blocking and should continue to help the offense improve moving forward. That should be a scary thought for the rest of the teams on the schedule.

Horns_bullet_mediumTracking: playmaking defense. After forcing five turnovers against Oklahoma, including three fumbles (two on special teams) and making two interceptions, the Longhorns only intercepted two passes and had the blocked punt by Curtis Brown. "Only" three turnovers because Texas didn't knock any balls loose, a similar performance to the Colorado game in that respect. It may have been mostly a result of Emmanuel Acho not getting a ton of playing time when Missouri was actually moving the football in the running game on their only touchdown drive, as neither Keenan Robinson nor Roddrick Muckelroy have shown the ability to relieve ball carriers of the football, but to be fair to Robinson, his sample size is pretty small. Muckelroy's is not. The bottom line is that the coaching staff is probably going to emphasize ball-stripping techniques again this week and the defense could really help the offense by forcing a fumble or two.

In the department of intercepting passes, the Longhorns continue to do a good job, but the biggest difference between now and earlier in the season is that players are finishing plays right now instead of dropping easy or relatively easy interceptions. Perhaps the biggest surprise in that department is Blake Gideon, who now has three interceptions after failing to pick off a pass all last season. Late in the game against Missouri, he read the quarterback's eyes and came off his man to intercept a pass intended for a receiver behind him along the sidelines, an excellent heads-up play. As long as he can make the plays he puts himself in a position to make, his athletic limitations aren't as much of a problem.

Chykie Brown also intercepted a pass, the first of his career, showing off his ability to react quickly by catching a tipped pass that ended up basically hitting him near the chest on a slant. While it wasn't an extremely difficult play, it's really his reward for having been around the football on so many short passes this year -- he's had his share of mental breakdowns, but his play this season has only been a disappointment compared to the high level of play turned in by Aaron Williams, Curtis Brown, and now Deon Beasley in limited opportunities. How about Beasley, though? It looks like coming so close to having his football career taken away from him has finally made him turn it up a notch on the field. He's actually a physical presence out there now. Good for him.

It's worth noting that both interceptions came off of back-up Jimmy Costello, but it's not like Blaine Gabbert was gashing the Longhorns in the passing game, though he did deliver an incredible pass to Danario Alexander into good double coverage by Robinson and Gideon. The Longhorns managed to knock Gabbert from the game on a sack by Eddie Jones, who continues to make the most of his snaps and continues to be a major success story for this team. Sergio Kindle was Sergio Kindle, disrupting plays. Missouri tried to run at him on the second play of the game and that's just a bad idea. That's just making it easy for him. Lamarr Houston was extremely disruptive and showed no ill effects from the OU offensive lineman trying to end his college career with a dangerous blow below to the knee in the Cotton Bowl. It's clear now that he is a defensive tackle through and through. It's hard to say enough about how well this defensive line has played and it's comforting to know that Ben Alexander can give the team some really good snaps up in Stillwater.

The bottom line -- right now it's dangerous to be an opposing quarterback facing the Longhorns.

Horns_bullet_mediumUp on the high horse. The Tim Tebow love is sickening. Absolutely sickening. It was sickening when Thom Brennaman kept going on and on during the national championship game about how five minutes with Tebow would change your life. Hey, it's true -- if you've got some extra skin on your genitalia, Tebow will happily remove it for you. That's life changing right there. But what Tebow does with young Phillipino children isn't the point here.

The point is what Tebow did after his worst collegiate game, throwing two interceptions returned for touchdowns against MIssissipi State -- clearly, Tebow decided to channel his inner Jarrett Lee and that's just never a good idea. Instead of being a man, being the so-called greatest leader in the history of people leading people, and facing the media after his struggles, Tebow was nowhere to be found at the post-game press conference. Urban Meyer offered some lame, bullshit excuse about his quarterback visiting with his former offensive coordinator, current Mississippi State head coach Dan Mullens. Trash.

The cult of personality surrounding Tebow has gotten completely out of control over the last several years, but it's something that Tebow has more than embraced. He's allowed it to become what it is. His stupid speech after the Ole Miss loss last season that is ridiculously enshrined at Florida already. Congratulations -- as a quarterback, Tebow accepted responsibility for losing after failing to convert the crucial play of the game. Incredible! Has a quarterback ever taken responsibility for a loss they were responsible for in the history of football? Apparently not. The talk of how great of a leader he is all the time, yet his teammates visibly tune him out on the sidelines when he's giving them a tongue-lashing. Blah blah blah. Man up, Tebow -- you act like the second coming of Jesus, but then can't talk to the media after a bad game?

Colt McCoy, who obviously has no love lost for Tebow, saying several weeks ago that he has no relationship with the guy, had this to say ($) about avoiding post-game press conferences:

First of all, (Texas football communications director) John (Bianco) and them wouldn't let me do that if I wanted to. But I think it's your job as a leader, as the quarterback, no matter what, win, lose or draw, if you play good or you don't, you've got to go talk to the media. You're the voice for the fans to let them know what happened, and that's your job as a quarterback to do that.

That's right, Tebow, not only is Colt more of a man and a leader, but your SID is a weeny, too.

There were some murmurs last week about McCoy making excuses for his poor play against Oklahoma with talk of him being sick for the hundredth time this season and the thumb injury he said made it hard to hold onto the football and led to him fumbling near the goalline. Yet, McCoy still went and spoke to the media about it, manning up for his poor play. Not so Tebow.

It's certainly interesting to wonder why it is that Tebow and McCoy don't have some sort of friendship, given that both have deep religious beliefs and are seemingly cut from the mold. Perhaps McCoy feels resentment that Tebow gets such wide-spread adulation for snipping foreskins, while McCoy receives relatively little acclaim for travelling on two separate mission trips to Peru. Maybe it's frustrating to McCoy that he's a much better quarterback, but comparatively receives so little love for it. Of course, as Longhorns fans, it's actually beneficial that McCoy doesn't receive the same attention, as it would surely become just as sickening for the rest of the country as Tebow-love has become.

Given this last performance by Tebow, though? McCoy is not only a better leader than Tebow, which he showed, but he's also a much better quarterback than Tebow and every bit the runner, ably filling the unbelievably huge shoes of Vince Young, handling that pressure with aplomb. I'll take McCoy any day. You can buzz off, Tebow, I'd just as soon never hear from you again.

0 recs  |  125 comments

Comments

Burnt in NY disagrees with you on Hix
Back and forth

I’m going back and forth with Hix about his performance. He did poorly in space and was beat twice on pass blocks and once on a run block. Eh. I think I would probably grade his performance out a tad higher than burnt, but I still think that he’s been worse recently than he was against Missouri, so overall, however flawed his performance was, it was still a relative improvement.

Tebow

You wrote what most are thinking on his post game performance. Not to mention, no one is talking about his abysmal performance against a below average defense. While people were all over Colt last week for a similar performance against a great defense.

Not to mention

Colt made the (game saving) tackle on his interception against OU. IMHO, if you throw the INT then you make the tackle.

It's clear with Tebow

that his performance on the field can only make people love him more, not question their previous conceptions. It’s absolutely terrible and sickening.

For the game, Texas played 11 personnel for around 80% of the snaps.

What’d they do the rest of the game?

As for Blake Gideon, I think he’s showing more and more that his athletic limitations, well, aren’t. He’s still a pretty darn good athlete, even if he’s not AW or Earl. The difference is that he’s picking up plays and, now, creating turnovers, which is why I think most Longhorns fans are neither pining for Scott nor calling all that loudly for Wells. Thomas and Gideon are on track to be one of the nation’s top safety pairs, IMO, and it isn’t all because of Thomas.

Loved what you said about Beasley. The kid is showing up to games now. While he may not wrest away a starting job, that’s now more because of terrific play by all the corners on the chart than a reflection of any of his deficiencies. I’m regaining hope that the kid might be draftable or at least likely to stick as an UDFA. My favorite play, although it doesn’t highlight how he’s done in coverage, was his nice blitz when he got Gabbert.

It’s clear now that he is a defensive end through and through. It’s hard to say enough about how well this defensive line has played and it’s comforting to know that Ben Alexander can give the team some really good snaps up in Stillwater.

I had been thinking that he’s been more than impressive enough both inside and outside. I think his problem is going to be where NFL draft scouts want him to play, although I’m guessing his best shot is to be a big end in a three-man front. Of course, I care far more about Longhorns football than the NFL, but I think most would agree that we all hope the best for him and all Longhorns if and when they try to continue playing football.

As for Tebow, he’s probably developing some social problems for lack of human interaction. It can get awfully lonely up there, whether one’s on a cross or a pedestal.

"What’d they do the rest of the game?"

Probably a joke on your part, but GoBR is referring to the personnel groupings. Our best friend in the world ever, Beergut, did a short write-up on some of the differences a while back:
http://www.iamthe12thman.com/2008/11/4/653511/they-re-not-playing-the-sa

I can’t find any better descriptions of personnel types right now though.

11 personnel means 1 RB and 1 TE
Yeah, it was a joke

 In fact, except on plays for which the team should be penalized, there will always be eleven personnel on any given snap.

They were empty or 10 personnel the rest of the game.

I don’t think we went I formation at all.

My biggest problem with Gideon is his ability to tackle in space, where he struggles mightily at times. Against Oklahoma, he missed six tackles. Not good for a safety.

Oops, meant that Houston is a defensive tackle through and through. I think we can probably play either inside or, as you say, as a defensive end in a 3-4, which may be his best fit.

I am still pining for Scott. If we end up playing FL or AL with a strong running games Scott would without question be an upgrade over BG.

This is a joke right?
Not a joke in my mind...Scott is a physical specimen

If we end up playing Alabama or especially Florida, we are going to need players that can tackle in space. Gideon is only good for piling on top of a runner after he has been tackled. Too many times I have seen him whiff or get ran over resulting in long runs. Teebow would run over the poor kid. Gideon is the weak link of the defense and we have to do something to improve it. You can keep telling yourself how smart he is and how improved he is but he’s still the weak link. Do you honestly trust him to be on the field in a close game that the defense has to make a stop on in order to win the game in the last seconds (i.e. Texas Tech 2008)? I surely don’t.

I think he asked if he was joking because Scott is ineligible.

Yeah, it would be great to have Ed Reed playing for the Horns against Florida or Alabama, but there’s the little matter of him being as eligible to do so as Scott is.

He was referring to Scott being eligible for the bowl game

If he gets back in good academic standing at the end of this semester, I believe he would then be eligible to play in the bowl game. Would be a tough situation to put Scott in though since he really hasn’t played much since high school (3 years). If he does get eligible, I still can’t envision us playing him unless someone was injured.

Why does it need to be?

The KU game comes to mind.

Good BG.
Bad BG.

Good Scott at 4:43 and 5:24

Blake Gideon, even on good plays, gets run over. Scott stops the RB in his tracks.

I’m not arguing that Scott is way better, but you seem to think he’d be a liability. I haven’t seen that. Unless you’re just saying since he’s ineligible. But dasmith didn’t indicate anything about eligibility.

I think Gideon's weakness is tackling

But Scott has always seemed way, way less reliable. He’s like Earl Thomas before Earl Thomas learned to stop making mistakes.

Speaking of which...

…I was re-visiting Earl’s recruiting page, and it looks like he didn’t get an offer from anyone but UT and aggie. Anyone know why?

was he an early commit?
Neither

Neither Scott nor BG were early commits as I recall.

No question Scott would be better vs a run team, he’s a bigger guy.

Interesting thought on the Bowl game, hadn’t considered it.

what about Earl?
I guess it's not like he'd be burning a redshirt if he played.

Collins would, but Scott’s already using a season of eligibility this year, so it’s entirely possible he could dress or even play. I would think the coaches would be concerned about his lack of game snaps, and bowl games are no time for rust, so it seems unlikely.

Where do you get that I think Scott would be a liability?

The guy is ineligible. Who cares if he gets his eligibility back for the MNC, he’s not going to play. Maybe he gets time with special teams, but I have a hard time seeing Muschamp putting the guy in the biggest game of the year with zero game experience in over a year.

There is no question that Scott is more athletic and bigger than Gideon, but right now the guy is all potential. And that potential will not have a chance to be realized until the 2010 season.

Here's where:

dasmith said:

[Against a running O] Scott would without question be an upgrade over BG

You said:

This is a joke right?

To me, asking if something is a joke indicates that you consider it ludicrous or absurd. It wouldn’t be ludicrous or absurd if Scott was on the same level as Gideon. It would be if he were a significant downgrade or liability.

Obviously, I misinterpreted you. Sorry.

Now that you’ve clarified, I still don’t think he needs to be joking since all he said was that he wishes Scott were playing and is better against the run. Which you seem to think may be worth wishing for and may be true (more athletic and bigger).

True character isn't shown when the chips are up

It is shown when the chips are down. Tebow is the self-centered woosy I always thought he was. I’m glad it finally has been shown. I also think it is setting up a good Tebow vs. McCoy feud battle for the NC.

Goodwin is awesome and is so mature for a true freshman. Coach Brown had a great observation about him when he talked about the OU game. He said that Goodwin is so much more mature than any freshman he has ever seen because of his extensive track competitions in huge stadiums around the world. He is focused and is a winner.

I think Texas has to do one key thing to win this game and that is NOT turnover the ball….Williams, Fozzy, etc. Ball protection is key, and get it into the endzone!! We need to play aggressive and to win, and I just hope GD doesn’t play overly conservative in order to not turnover the ball. IMO we have to do both-be aggressive with good ball control.

Fozzy just isn't that fast

As for Whittaker, he’s no savior for the running game, but he does have good if not great speed

I agree that his speed was “good” but not “great.” This left me somewhat unhappy as I had somehow been under the impression that this mythical Fozzy creature was a true burner. On the TD, when he got the edge, I thought he would be able to sprint to the corner untouched. It just seemed he didn’t have that extra gear and barely made it in against a slow defense. Against Alabama or Florida (sorry to count chickens that ain’t hatched!) he would never make it close to the endzone.

All this leads me to say we really do lack elite speed at RB. Using Monroe can be a partial answer but is there anyone else in the pipeline (recruits etc.) who can bring some of that Jamal Charles or Ced Benson speed back to the RB position for us??

Fozzy's speed

I, too, have been somewhat disappointed in his lack of elite top-end speed. I’m not sure if some of that is his injury history and he’s not as fast as he was in high school, or if he just doesn’t look as fast because he’s rather high effort to get going right now and doesn’t glide like Monroe, for instance. I think in fairness he probably deserves more opportunities to prove his speed before we all write him off as being slower than expected.

As for recruiting speed, Texas will go after two guys with exceptional speed in 2011 in Aaron Green and Herschel Sims. Malcolm Brown isn’t on the same level in terms of speed as those two guys, but he brings other positive skills to the table, particularly his physicality and he’s far from slow. Another guy to watch out for is Chris Jones, who is a receiver in high school, but carries the ball a lot on jet sweeps, something Davis has finally put into the offense with Monroe. Davis would be smart to get Jones the ball in the same way in college, but I don’t expect it.

"Good but not great" speed from here on out is "Robinson" speed per PB.

i.e. A little above average.

Benson

I think ‘bulldozer’ would be a better b-word description than ‘burner’ for Benson. Benson definitely lacked top end speed at the RB position.

Great write up

as usual it was very informative and a nice break from my day. Reading about the receivers and how Goodwin seems likely to hang on to the starting spot the rest of the year, it got me wondering about Timmons. How does he feel about the situation after we told him he was the only receiver we were going to take and then sitting out the year and watching another true freshman earn a starting spot. I know Goodwin has been a surprise to everyone and i am not upset at all about it, just wondering if anyone has heard anything about the situation. I saw Timmons the other day on campus and he is bigger than i expected. At least physically he looks like he will be ready to contribute next year

Timmons

I don’t have any inside information about Timmons, so it’s hard to say anything about how he feels about Goodwin. Timmons is probably a split end or flanker, so they can both be on the field at the same time since they have such different skill sets.

Word out of fall camp was that Timmons is definitely jacked and he supposedly performed well early, so I think it’s safe to be optimistic about him. I don’t see him being a huge contributor next season, but he will definitely have a chance to back up Malcolm Williams and battle Chiles for playing time. With a year in the S&C program, he should really become a beast, much from the mold of a guy like Williams. He’s got a big future, it’s probably just down the line a ways.

Play action effectiveness

Play action is effective when the run game is effective. It is easy to go deep on play action passes because there is more time to throw the ball (because the D is distracted by the run fake). If the safety takes one step the wrong way because of the run play action fake, he will never catch up with a speedster WR (as we saw on Chiles long TD reception).

The run game is effective because of better blocking. There is better blocking because there is a good run blocking TE on the field rather than Buckner.

Greg Smith blocking

“In the running game, he didn’t dominate, but he was effective”

Zone blocking is not about domination, it is about team blocking (especially at TE), using the blockee’s momentum against him, and maintaining contact. Greg Smith gets zone blocking (which is not trivial).

The one run block that you said Greg missed (in another post) was not a total miss but was just barely effective. Greg dove at the DE and forced him to take evasive action. This slowed the DE long enough to keep him from making a play on the runner. That was a difficult block to make because Greg was obstructed from moving to his left and the DE was not (plus he was standing initially and then running away from Greg). The dive block was a smart choice given the circumstances.

One pass blocking problem occurred on the errant snap by the center. The bad snap permitted the DE to take a rushing angle which would normally be unproductive but worked in this case because Colt had to go so deep to get the snap). While the DE shared credit for the sack, in reality Colt was able to evade the DE. It is very difficult to pass block when the pocket has been moved (and you don’t know it). That sack was mainly because of a bad snap. After the play, Colt spoke to Chris Hall when they got to the sidelines and it did not look like a pleasant exchange.

My guess is that Greg was blocking the hotshot DE by himself because the coaches thought he had the speed to do it (i.e. Greg is quicker than the UT interior OL). The coaches probably thought that the Mizzou DE was too quick for the UT right OT. The unusual assignent of Greg to block this hotshot DE by himself is a sign that the coaches think Greg is a pretty decent pass blocker.

When was the other play that Greg had trouble pass blocking? I’d like to look at the play.

not sure what to think about Malcolm

his tendency to fumble and to sort of trip over his own feet reminds me of similar gazelles like Limas…amazing deep threat…but seems sort of soft given his size…i really think colt is missing brandon collins…solid hands, can juke you out, and also doesn’t mind contact

Concentration

He has to concentrate on looking the ball into his hands and tucking it away before looking upfield. On the fumbles, he has to concentrate o tucking the ball away and getting two hands on it when contact approaches. These things will hurt his YAC but will down on his drops and fumbles. He has to solve this problem or he won’t be playing. Buckner has great hands and is available.

Collins has the drops also...

I remember several times where Collins dropped wide open catches. Collins is definitely no Shipley or Cosby hands wise. I would put the hands of Kirkendall, Collins and Malcolm at the same mediocre level. All 3 of them have lapses where they forget to catch the ball before running.

I definitely have no such recollection. Are you certain?
Malcolm's has an X Factor

No pun intneded. He brinbgs so much more upside to the field than his downside. The guy is a plymakeer in every aspect of the game and is too valuable not to have on the field. I can live wiht his 1 or 2 drops per game. He more than compensates in every other area.

I agree with that he needs to wrap the ball in when approching a tackler, but without losing his ability to make people miss and break one. Ball safety has to trump in that scenario. I like his yac approach though. DB’s are getting punished when they take him on.

sorry for the lack of proof read
I disagree about the upside:downside

He’s a huge liability if those one or two drops are drive-killers. I think the ideal time to throw it to MW, at least until he develops more consistency, is on second and short.

Cody AND Fozzy

One new wrinkle could be playing both Cody and Fozzy at the same time on some downs. Cody could play TB while Fozzy is playing in the slot. That would gve the horns a bad ass running attack while still having an effective WR in the slot.

At Mizzou, Cody averaged more than 6 yards per carry on the runs which were not short yardage situations.

GoBR, great stuff as always....

The funny thing about Tebow is the people that I have found that don’t like the guy or have a strong distaste for him actually. I have met several people that are very “good” people in the mold very similar to Colt and they almost hate Tebow, which I find funny and has encouraged my dislike for the Tebow as well.
My friend said, “Everybody outside of the state of Florida knows the guy’s a fake chump.” Haha, love it!

Thanks for the read GoBR

When the offense reached a 3rd & 2 play in Missouri territory on the first drive of the game, I mentioned to my buddy that the play would be telling about whether there would be any “real” change to the offense. The fact the jumbo package came in rather than an empty back set… I guess they could be serious about this. We’ll see as the games go on. There’s a chance, just a chance, that we could look back to the week following the OU game as the time when the offense finally found it’s identity & Davis finally responded to the counters deployed against his scheme, allowing the offense to finally not play at a tactical disadvantage… or Colt may not throw a pass longer than 8 yards next week. We’ll see.

So tired of hearing about Tebow. However, if Tebow were to win the Heisman again this year & the BCS Championship was UT v UF, the Horns would be playing a team w/ 2 Heisman trophies while having 0. Why does that ring a bell?

The NCAA has informed Ok St that star receiver Dez Bryant will remain suspended for one calendar year (ends in Sept 2010). Ok St appealing

not all that meaningful correction, but

you guys consistently misuse “compliment” when you mean “complement”. Nice write-up though.

Actually, they don't.

Watch the games carefully. CJ and Fozzy spend the entire time, from pre-game warmups to the singing of the Eyes of Texas, pointing at each other and yelling, “No, you da man.”

And I call myself an English major...
Didn't know you were British and in their armed forces...cool! n/t
Did anyone else notice

other WR’s helping Malcolm Williams get lined up properly on several occasions? This is probably one of the main reasons why he has not seen the field. If he hasn’t grasped the offensive playbook in two and a half years, he has not been putting in the appropriate study time.

Addendum

I was only able to watch from the punt block on Saturday night as my DVR failed to record the game (operator error?). In the second half I noticed Malcolm Williams looking to teammates either for play info or for line up instructions on a handful of snaps. I just got done watching the first half of the game on 360 and he played very well. Please strike my previous statement from the record.

Hard to judge that

You don’t know if he did not know the play or just did not see the signal from the sideline. Because we go no huddle a lot receivers often have to get the play from each other.

Tebow Envy

The jealousy shown toward Tim Tebow, due to MEDIA hype, is a little disappointing when I see it coming from Horns. I’ve always liked Colt but really think he should mind his own business. He comes off as a wannabe who is trying to play to the media in hopes of improving his Heisman hopes.

Tebow is a class act and has not sought out the media. They have sought him out. Should he have stuck around to talk to the media? Probably, but his team WON not lost and I’m positive he didn’t avoid the media because he threw a couple of picks. He had a chance to see his former mentor and took it. Tebow isn’t perfect, but I’ve never seen him dodge a tough question. Like it or not, he deserves all the accolades he has receieved. He is a genuine good guy. The author seems a little “focused” (hung up?) on Tebow’s missionary work and alot of the flack thrown at Tebow seems to come from those who have a problem with his Christianity.

But it’s shaping up to be a Florida/Texas showdown for all the marbles, just like it SHOULD have been last year. No hosing for UT this year as you control your own destiny. I would LOVE to see my two favorite teams go at it for the trophy and I think it will happen. Good luck the rest of the way. Hook ’em!

The jealousy card ... what a surprise

1. Colt didn’t seek out the media to offer his opinion. He actually went to a press conference, was asked a question, and gave an honest answer. Tebow could learn something from him.

2. I find it exceedingly comical that you label Colt as a “wannabe” who is trying to “play to the media in hopes of improving his Heisman hopes,” yet you file away Tebow’s act under “The Media’s Fault.” Colt doesn’t give a damn about individual awards. Colt wants to win football games and give his teammates a shot at a national title. And when Colt plays a bad game, he takes it like a man. He doesn’t expect the media to gloss over his poor performance, and he sure as hell doesn’t hide on the bus and leave his coach to take the heat. Something else Tebow could learn from him.

3. You don’t think Tebow seeks out the media? How about hauling camera crews to watch him circumcise Filipino children? How about running up and down the sidelines, yelling at his teammates like Richard Simmons on steroids? How about grabbing a microphone and promising the rest of last season would be all about him and his effort and his courage? You are on crack if you think this guy isn’t pulling all of these stunts for the media’s benefit.

4. Tebow could have spoken to his former coach and then done the requisite postgame interviews. He talked to Mullen on the field before he even headed for the locker room. Don’t make excuses for the guy. You’ve never seen him dodge a tough question? He dodged plenty of them on Saturday. He never hesitates to put his bravery and leadership on display when he’s got something to gain. Hiding from reporters after the worst game of his career is bullshit.

5. Tebow isn’t getting flack from us for being a Christian. Our QB is a devout Christian who never fails to acknowledge God after games. He’s done mission trips with his family his whole life, only no one knows because he doesn’t take ESPN with him. Religion has nothing to do with it. Tebow is getting flack from us because he acted like a pussy on Saturday. It really is that simple.

What evidence of Colt's being a "wannabe" or having jealosy of Tebow have you seen?

I haven’t seen a lick of it. It’s entirely possible that Colt decided Tebow was a big phony when he had to spend time with him in NYC.

What is a texigator? Is that in the same family as an agitator?
It's a close cousin of the twittericroc.
Tebow Jealousy

basssale, Tim Tebow has probably given more interviews than the entire Texas team combined. He skips ONE in his career and just because rivals don’t like the explanation, gets pilloried for it. To claim that Tebow is the one who likes to “take ESPN with him” and was “hauling film crews to watch him circumcise Fliipino children” undermines your credibility and exposes your agenda. Like it or not, and I realize you don’t, the MEDIA has a fixation on Tebow and follows him around everywhere he goes, including to the Phillipines.

As far as his “running up and down the sidelines, yelling at his teammates like Richard Simmons on steroids”, you make a cute, but inaccurate analogy. He is an emotional leader who is the heart and soul of the defending National Champions. He has always been a vocal leader, unlike Colt. Colt is more laid back. Nothing wrong with that, Colt is a very effective leader, just a different style. And Richard Simmons is a Florida STATE grad, not UF.

Personally, I like Colt and think he is an outstanding QB. UT dodged a nuclear missle when Perriloux broke his word and the Horns ended up with McCoy instead. I just think it’s sad to see rivals feeling a need to tear down someone else as the only way to elevate their favored player.

And orangetower, texigator is not in the same family as agitator. texigator is a Texas who was born there but grew up in Florida and graduated from UF, although his sons graduated from UT. My two favorite teams are Florida and Texas.

The reason I responded to this thread was not to agitate, but rather in response to some pretty disappointing comments from a usually classy fan base.

Still calling BS

If you liked Colt McCoy, thought he was an outstanding QB, or knew the first damn thing about him, you would never have even thought to suggest that he’s a “wannabe” or that he is on some crusade in the media to win a bronze trophy that means nothing anymore.

Tebow had the worst game of his career against a crappy defense and refused to make himself available to the media afterward. I don’t know how you can call that vocal, leadership, or any combination of the two. At least Colt McCoy and his “laid back” leadership style had the balls to face his critics and accept responsibility when he played poorly against the best defense in America.

You people have your heads so far up Tebow’s ass that reality has escaped you for good. Whatever will you do when St. Timothy of Gainesville becomes St. Timothy of Some Random NFL Team’s Bench?

Um...
At least Colt McCoy and his "laid back" leadership style had the balls to face his critics and accept responsibility when he played poorly against the best defense in America.

That would be more like “arguably the best defensive line in America” (I’m assuming your talking about Oklahoma).

I don't think it is arguable, so no, I did not mean "arguably"
Fair enough

But you forgot to put “line” in there; you simply put “best defense.”

Thank you for responding texigator.

I thought for a minute you were a wolf in sheeps clothing. I heard more of a howl than a bleet when you said “wannabe” about a QB who is about to break the all time NCAA record for the winningest QB in history, and who currenlty holds the best completion ratio of any QB in college football history.

Here’s a news flash…we are not one bit jealous of Tebow.

Thanks for coming over here, texigator.

Definitely appreciate your points and the fact that you make them in a rational, even manner, even though I still disagree with you.

It probably does go on the media more than Tebow, but the bottom line is that I’m tired of it and willing to call him out over a little chink in the armor because I’m tired of it.

AMEN!!

Im so sick of the Tebow fest that has taken over the media. Maybe he didnt ask the media to jock ride him till kindom freakin come, but he certainly doesnt shun the attention. We have had two quarterbacks in recent history who I would take anyday over Tebow. There is no jealousy whatsoever. We give respect where respect is due, he is a great collegiate athelete. But he is not Jesus II and spending five minutes with him will not make my life better. Check the sig.

There are some good points made

First, I must say that I should not characterize Colt as a “wannabe” (although I did say that he CAME OFF like one, not that he was one). Poor choice of words. I was just ticked off that Colt would chastize Tebow in that manner. I didn’t think it was very classy. But, I do like and respect Colt and consider him one of the two or best QBs (along with Tebow, and last year, Bradford) in college the last two years.

Pineypoint, Tebow DID shun the attention Saturday when he skipped the presser, the very thing he is taking heat for here. If he was truly so media conscious, dontcha think he would’ve at least made an appearance to appease the media and avoid criticism? But in my very first post here I stated that I thought he “probably” should have attended it.

I like Vince, too, and think he was a great QB. But I’ll take Tebow with 2 National Championships and a shot at a third.

Now can I understand how the general public has tired of the Tebow Media Love Fest (and, yes, most of us Gators even gagged with the “spend five minutes with Tebow and it will change your life” comment)? Yes. But, the fact of the matter is that it is good for Gator football, especially recruiting, and at least the attention is going to a good person.

But, good luck the rest of the season. Like I said before, I’d love nothing better than a Horn/Gator matchup in the National Championship game (although I don’t like the UT mojo going back to the Rose Bowl).

Hook ’em!

If Dan Mullen left his coaching responsibilities to spend another five minutes with Tebow, when Tebow was supposed to be doing what leaders do, then that’s good enough for me. Obviously he just wanted his life to be better for it.

You can have Tebow all you want,

but he’s not even in the same stratosphere as Vince Young.

Definitely see your point on Tebow not wanting to talk to the media showing that he’s not a media whore and would really like to know more about why McCoy doesn’t care for Tebow. It could be that he is a little bit jealous, a feeling that I think is reasonable in some ways.

Again, thanks for being so reasoned with your points.

I don't think that shows it at all.

All it shows is that while he’s perfectly willing to talk to the media when he can do something the media will love, he’s not willing when he’s going to face a tough press.

One time vs many, many

It is absurd to claim that one no-show by Tebow in FOUR YEARS outweighs all of the other times (remember the four losses in ‘07) he has faced the music. It just stretches a point beyond credibility and lends suspicion to the agenda of the poster when you want to make a mountain out of a molehill. But, then again, I guess that’s all you’ve got, so run with it. I think most objective observer would disagree with you.

Oh?

Then why was it even mentioned that he failed to show up to the presser?

If he were a no-show after a win, or after a game in which he had been anything better than mediocre, then it would have been a non-issue. But he comes off as an evasive baby when he fails to face the press when the chips are down.

Tebow was a bit player on the first national championship.

He didn’t have to play Texas to win the second (a team that, like Florida, beat OU by 10 points on a neutral field) and even though they did win, he still hasn’t had an undefeated season. Furthermore, Tebow has had the benefit of an excellent defense in 3 of his 4 years at Florida, and the one year that he didn’t, Florida finished 9-4, which is a worse record than Texas has had in any year since 1997. If “will to win” or something similar is what defines Tebow’s value, then it’s curious that Chris Simms has him beat in “actually winning games”.

Pardon us if we’re not all that enthralled with a guy who has never been the best player on his own team, and until this year has never been the best player on his own offense. And in years in which he doesn’t have a whole lot of help, (2007 on Defense and 2009 on offense), his teams struggle.

Watch the Rose Bowl with USC and tell me Tebow even comes close to VY in any capacity other than hype.

Tebow with two national championships...

This same story? He was a backup in 2006 and came in to run every once in a while. That’s it. Man, Chris Leak gets shafted by his own fans.

There is absolutely no way I’d pick Tebow over Vince. I’d pick Colt over Tebow, so why would I trade Tebow for one of the most physically gifted players to ever play college football? If I had to win one game and my life depended upon it, I’m going with VY. In a blinding heartbeat.

Sorry if that came on strong

Thanks for your input here, but I just continued to be amused how much Leak, the actual starting quarterback, is dismissed. It’s like when people were talking so much about USC’s national championship in 2003 and forgot that LSU had a share of it. At least USC won the AP poll; Tebow didn’t “share” the starting QB position. He was the backup. Straight up. And that team won purely because of defense, because their offense was pretty crappy up until they faced a woefully unprepared Ohio State team.

Leak dismissed???

I don’t understand your claim that Leak is dismissed by his own fans. In my post below, I wrote “While I don’t think we would have won it without Chris Leak as the starter”. I don’t know how much clearer I could make it that I considered Leak to be not only THE STARTER, but also a VITAL part of the championship. Leak did, however, have his limitations and Tebow was the perfect COMPLIMENT to Leak’s skill set, just as Leak was to the then freshman Tebow. Most Gators I know love Chris Leak and appreciate all he did for UF.

But you credited Tim Tebow with two national championships

While we’re at it, I’m going to go ahead and say Colt McCoy has a national championship too.

Tebow DOES deserve credit for TWO MNCs

Go ahead and credit Colt, if you want. Anyone who watched the 2006 season would realize that Tebow was a significant contributor to the success the Gators had that year. Tebow accounted for 847 total yards, THIRTEEN TDs, and has a QB rating of 201.73. Colt McCoy’s 2005 stats were 0 total yards, 0 TDs and a QB rating of 0. If you think that is comparable, I’ll just leave it at that.

Most of those TDs were dives

He was basically Javorskie Lane. Meyer could’ve put in a real fullback and gotten approximately the same results.

Hmm

Hmm, if “dives” are so easy, why didn’t Vince or Colt rack up the rushing TDs like Tebow has? In fact, since he is the SEC CAREER LEADER IN RUSHING TDs, why hasn’t some other BACK rushed for more?

You seem to have a problem giving credit where credit is due.

Are you kidding?

Because we used other backs, backs even like Henry Melton. If we wanted Vince to score 30 rushing touchdowns, we could have. We preferred to save him for other things when we had other guys who could do that.

Because those teams had running backs.

Like Cedric Benson and Jamaal Charles/Ramonce Taylor/ Melton.

Tebow has never had a run longer than 30 yards. VY did.

He never averaged more than 5.5 yds per carry. VY did.

He’s never beaten Michigan in a bowl game. VY did it when Michigan hadn’t lost to Appy St. but had won the Big 10.

VY never lost to an underdog. Tebow has.

If you need real proof that VY was a better college QB than Tebow, watch Vince take a game over and show me Tebow doing that. Watch him convert 4th and 5 rather than get stuffed on 4th and 1

Is Tebow good? Yes.

Is he as good as you say he is? Not a chance.

Don’t be ridiculous and claim he’s the best rusher the SEC has seen. Or did you not have a point when you made that statement.

Because Mack's not a dope

He didn’t pull his starting QB to put in the backup for dives.

Texas has used Henry Melton, more recently, Cody Johnson for that.

I can’t believe this is that hard for you to process. I admit people out here on the Least Coast don’t seem to know jack about football, but this is ridiculous.

I don't have a dog in this fight

But the stats you’re using are the classic example of “lies, damned lies, and statistics”. The game logs bear that out, as do the ratable numbers.

In 2006 Tebow does deserve substantial credit for UF’s win over LSU, his three tds were absolutely the difference in that game. His other contributions were far more dubious, as in, only attempted more than 3 passes against Western Carolina dubious. Touting his QB rating on that sample size is absurd.

Most of the statistical arguments in favor of Young as a passer and rusher, and against Tebow as each, will hinge on the ratable numbers and explosive plays. Simply, Tebow is not very explosive as a rusher and the statistics clearly bear that out (29 yard career long against Central Florida as a freshman, a middling 4.3 yard per carry career average).

There are clearly a number of strong arguments for Tebow as a great college qb, particularly in a masterful 2007 season, but to simply state the season or career numbers as marks of greatness is going overboard.

Arguably his greatest attribute has been his ability to expand Meyer’s playbook (UF runs a QB power which accounts for a number of Tebow’s td’s and actually makes the jump pass logical) and playing within his own limitations.

Longhorn fans argue so strongly for VY because at the college level no one quite knew his limitations.

not exactly sure why I channeled James Baker for a subject line...
No jump pass-No National Championship

Once again, I’m not diminishing Vince’s accomplishments. I have repeatedly written that Vince was greatness (I don’t care how college players do in the pros when we’re talking about college football).

It is good to see someone give Tebow at least SOME credit for 2006. Without Tebow’s performance against LSU, the Gators don’t win that game. If they didn’t win THAT game, they didn’t win the SEC or the National Championship. If that were the ONLY game in which he played, Tebow STILL would have played an integral part in the season. But he was consistently used as a change-of-pace vis a vis Chris Leak and many, many times came into the game to move the chains. Most of us Gators greatly admired the classy way Leak handled being semi-platooned like that. Without Leak’s maturity and leadership, we wouldn’t have won, either.

I think you make an excellent point that Tebow’s greatest attribute (other than the intangibles of his leadership) was his ability to expand Meyer’s playbook. I think that is dead on.

As I wrote earlier, Tebow was just an effective a runner as Vince, albeit with a different STYLE. Vince was finesse with power, Tebow was outstanding power (yes, the power of a FULLBACK). Both players were effective passers who got the job done.

I, too, wish Vince had come back for another year, but I guess Sam Bradford has shown why Vince made a good decision. We’ll never know if Vince would’ve made it through his senior year injury free. If he had, I think it would’ve been magical.

Meyer had trouble recruiting his “big back” for his system the first few years. But we hope Moody will become a complete player and play more and there is a kid named Mike Gillisee on special teams who looks promising. The committment of Mack Brown (the OTHER Mack Brown LOL) should help alot, along with a 2011 kid named Bellamy. For speed guys, it doesn’t get any better than Jeff Demps and Chris Rainey. So next year would be interesting to see Tebow at QB with a full compliment of RBs, but that’s something we’ll just have to imagine (just like a senior year of Vince).

Anyway, I think this discussion has run its course. It’s been good chatting with ya’ll. Good luck against Okie Lite.

Hook ’em!

This is incorrect.
As I wrote earlier, Tebow was just an effective a runner as Vince, albeit with a different STYLE. Vince was finesse with power, Tebow was outstanding power (yes, the power of a FULLBACK). Both players were effective passers who got the job done.

Yes, there are different types of “effectiveness.” Picking up 3rd down and short with a run is a very important part of football. And you can do that with a fullback, a big running back or a quarterback. Vince was just as good at picking up third downs as Tebow is, but also had an explosive element that is completely lacking in Tebow. Could Tebow pick up a 3rd and 30 with his legs? Of course not. Could he pick up a 4th and 18 rushing? Hell no. Could he pick up a 4th and 1 against Ole Miss rushing directly up the middle to keep his undefeated season alive? Um, apparently not.

Yes, they have different styles, but VY was just as effective at doing what Tebow is so lauded for (picking up a tough 3-4 yards) PLUS had another level to break the big run that Tebow does not possess. You’re being absurd.

This is very interesting

Reading these posts is very interesting to me because I’m pretty active on the Gator boards and read a couple of our rivals’ boards, so it is really a different perspective here.

billyzane, Tebow didn’t get to select the teams he faced in the National Championship games (and I’ve already said that Texas got HOSED last year and should have been the opponent. And, yes, I think Texas would have posed a much tougher team to beat). He just played against whomever lined up against his team.

Anyone who thinks Tebow was a “bit player” in the 2006 Championship run, simply didn’t closely follow Gator football that year. While I don’t think we would have won it without Chris Leak as the starter, I’m also convinced we wouldn’t have won it without Tebow’s change-of-pace and power game that was so skillfully unleashed by Coach Meyer.

I have the utmost respect for Vince, but I think Tebow is clearly his equal. Tebow has a power game where Vince was finesse with some power. Tebow is a better passer (yes, I said that. Many folks fail to realize that Tebow was the career passing leader in Florida when he graduated from high school. Look at how few picks he has thrown in his college career, including last week). Their leadership intangibles were comparable. Texas doesn’t win it without Vince at QB and Florida doesn’t win it without Tebow at QB.

As much as Harvin (and Murphy) is/are missed this year, we won several games last year without Percy (injuries). The only loss last year came when Tebow was playing with a bad shoulder. We couldn’t have won it without Tebow.

Tebow is the career rushing TD leader (tied with Herschel Walker) in the SEC, one of the strongest conferences and historically strong rushing. He is the all-time TD producer in the history of UF (he just passed Danny Wuerffel, one of college’s all-time GREAT QBs). I’ll put his numbers up against Vince any day. Not to take away from Vince’s greatness, but Tebow is right up there, too.

BTW, I’m an old school Horn fan, from back in the day of Coach Royal (I’ve once had the pleasure of meeting him, what a fine gentleman!). I remember when Arkansas was the major rival and A & M was just kinda like the little brother begging for attention. I for the Tyler Rose back in the day. Hell, I even remember rooting for Tommy Nobis, so I love the Horns, too.

Wow, a better passer?

I’m not sure when the last time I was that I saw a Heisman candidate QB with such poor passing abilities. Maybe Eric Crouch, and that might be pushing it.

Not only a better passer than Vince....

Tebow is a MUCH better passer than was Vince. Not even close. Sure got the job done on the ground, as well. I’ll back up what I say with stats:

Tebow has thrown 15 INTs in his career. Out of 832 attempts. 75 passing TDs. 63.6% completion percentage. 167.53 career QB rating. 49 rushing TDs. 10.052 total yards. And this season is still only half over (stats current through 10/25)

Vince threw 28 INTs in his career out of 718 attempts. 44 passing TDs. 61.8% completion percentage. 151.78 career QB rating. 37 rushing TDs. 9,167 total yards

I give big props to Vince, who I think is greatness, but Tebow is every bit as good and even better than Vince and the stats prove that out.

Tebow is the definition of a system QB

Alex Smith was a world-beater under Urban Meyer. Vince? Not even close to a system guy.

nonsense stats

I’ll give you the INTs are a relevant and important stat, maybe even QB rating. St. Timmy has had an extra half-year on VY though. If Vince came back for his senior year he would have been off the charts in terms of total yardage and TDs. But what about yards per carry? Yards per pass attempt? Or even plays per game — VY sat out a lot of third and fourth quarters in 2005. You can’t just compare stats. Stats get you in the conversation but anybody who watched Vince and then watched St. Timmy has got to see how superior Vince is.

NONESENSE Stats? Surely, you jest

All I did was quote the standard stats for a QB that have been used historically to measure performance at that position.

I have already acknowledged that Vince was greatness. Tim Tebow is greatness, too, albeit with a different style game than Vince. Very effective, however, you must say.

If stats are your metric, Brennan and Harrell were greater QBs
What proof do YOU offer?

What proof do YOU offer in support of Vince over Tebow?

30-2

Only QB to have over 3000 yards passing and 1000 yards rushing in a season despite having something like EIGHTY less rushing attempts than Tim Tebow had in 2007 and sitting on the bench in many a second half because Texas was rolling over most teams. Dominating performances in both BCS games he’s played in, something Tebow has not had.

It was good for VY to leave when he did, but goodness, I wish he came back to not only deliver us another national title (he would have), but to silence a lot of this Tebow love. We wouldn’t have to hear that Tebow has TWO national titles (2006 would belong to Vince), and Vince Young’s career stats would have shot through the roof.

Why is Tebow's QB rating consistently decreasing then?

In 3.5 years (since you’re giving him 2006-07’s MNC) has managed 12 more rushing TDs than VY did in 2?

Stats are for losers. Especially when you’re comparing apples to oranges.

Tebow vs. Vince

In Vince’s two full seasons as a starter, he lost one game. Tebow lost 4 games in his first season and won the heisman. Tebow won the MNC against a one loss team(that shouldn’t have been there) with a one loss team. Vince won the MNC against what was supposedly the best team of the decade, with an undefeated team. If Vince(hypothetically, when he was a college athlete) was the quarterback of UF last year, do you think they lose to Ole Miss at home? I think Tebow is a great player who puts up great stats (especially when he had a bad team) but i think he is more lucky than good. Both years he won the MNC his team didn’t need to be undefeated. Vince would have had another chance at a title with a one loss team(2004) or if he came back.

In all fairness

If you compared anyone to Vince Young i’d be offended haha

Tebow vs. Vince continued

Tebow has been an integral part of two National Championships. Vince has one ring. Tebow has two SEC Championships and is odds-on favorite for a third this year. Vince won one Big 12 Championship. Tebow has a first and third place Heisman finish. Vince has one second place finish.

Very few teams EVER get through a season in the SEC undfefeated. The conference is just too strong, most years.

BTW, now that we’re almost done with the decade, it turns out that the FLORIDA GATORS are the team of the decade, not USC, that same Florida Gator team led for three years by Tim Tebow.

I rest my case.

If that’s your case, it’s going to be pretty easy for the other side to win on summary judgment.

Tebow did NOT have an integral part in that first national championship. Not even close. He was a glorified fullback his freshman year, and he didn’t deserve the Heisman his sophomore year.

And I think you’re sorely distorting what those people meant when they called USC the team of the decade, or in some cases, the best team ever. They were calling it the best single team, not the most dominant of the decade. Are you seriously this confused?

You know not of what you speak

Glorified fullback or glorified QB, Tim Tebow was an INTEGRAL part of the 2006 National Championship. Simply, the Gators would not have won the MNC without him. If that is being an integral part, then I don’t know what is.

USC was getting all the hype in 2005. They were a very good team, but far from one of the greatest ever. Texas beat them and I didn’t hear anyone accusing Texas of being the greatest team ever. Florida has become dominant over a period of YEARS, not a one hit wonder, and that is significant when you realize that Tebow has led them for a third of the decade.

Again, he put up his stats against the toughest competition (surely the toughest DEFENSIVE conference) in the nation. Most Big 12 defenses have been a joke for a long time.

USC was indeed getting all the hype

Just like Florida has been recently. Be honest: did UF deserve to be in the 2009 BCS championship game over either OU or UT?

Absolutely not. They lost to effing Mississippi. Hype’s what stayed UF’s hand.

Florida deserved it

Florida played the #1 toughest schedule in the nation in 2008. How would their one loss against that schedule compare unfavorably with either UT or OU, who both also lost. Texas got hosed because they beat OU head-to-head and deserved the bid, stupid Big12 tiebreaker or not. But Florida had nothing to apologize for and controlled the game against OU to prove they belonged there after all.

I think Florida deserved to be there

But i’d say we have an argument since UF lost at home to an unranked team, while we lost in the last second on the road to the number 6 team in the nation. Once again we could go back and forth all night about Vince vs. Tebow but you will never convince me he was a better quarterback based on number of championships. Vince has a better winning percentage and just got hosed because BCS conference teams went undefeated in 2004. If Colt wins this year will he be as good as Tebow, since he will have two rings. He has a better record as a starter and both will have 2 rings, even though one of them was won with a different starting quarterback, so is that fair?

I’m also sick of all this SEC defense talk, didnt we hang 52 on Arkansas last year? I’d put our defense up against any in the vaunted SEC.

Exactly

UF lost at home to an unranked team. Texas lost its final game in the most brutal stretch of games any team has played in recent history, and did so on the road against a top team. OU lost at a neutral site against a top-three team.

Florida benefitted from hype more than anything else.

And I'd also add that at least 20 other players played more integral roles than Tebow did

If you are going to credit him with a national championship, then your standard is pretty low, since he wasn’t even in the top twenty most integral players on his own team.

It takes more than 20 players to make a football team

Tebow accounted for THIRTEEN TDs in 2006, almost one per game,a well as 847 totat yards. He wasn’t some bit player, but a football equivalent of the Sixth Man in basketball. I strongly disagree that there were 20 MORE integral players than he. He was in the top 10, easily (as was Leak).

Okay...
Simply, the Gators would not have won the MNC without him. If that is being an integral part, then I don’t know what is.

Very debatable. Even if we DID grant this, you’re assuming that nobody could have done what Tebow did in 2006, which is pushing it. You could point to a lot of guys on the team and say, “We wouldn’t have won without him; therefore, he was INTEGRAL to our success,” but that’s just bad logic. Not only does it assume, again, that his services were impossible to replace, it assumes that just because he played a small part, he played a part big enough to even be credited with two national championships. Normally, if you might notice, when QB’s are credited with titles, it’s because they were the full time starter.

The fact that you even bothered to post Tebow’s passer rating, when he passed like so little all that y ear, shows how you’re trying a wee bit too hard to skew the stats.


USC was getting all the hype in 2005. They were a very good team, but far from one of the greatest ever. Texas beat them and I didn’t hear anyone accusing Texas of being the greatest team ever. Florida has become dominant over a period of YEARS, not a one hit wonder, and that is significant when you realize that Tebow has led them for a third of the decade.

Some were touting Texas as one of the great teams of all time, but we’ll let that one go…

I’m no USC fan, but this is really absurd. Florida has been dominant over a period of YEARS? What was that 9-4 campaign? What was the Ron Zook era? Fact of the matter is, while the Gators have two national titles in three years, in both titles they had to rely on fortunate circumstance to make the final game and they have not shown the consistency of USC (or Texas) have shown throughout the entire decade. You seem to think that we should focus on 2006 and 2008 and forget about all 8 years of the decade.

Most Big 12 defenses have been a joke for a long time

You mean that mediocre Oklahoma defense that intercepted Tebow twice and held Florida to well below their average as well? What a joke they were. That 2005 Texas defense doesn’t count, I guess, because it was such a “long time” ago. And of course, the SEC has great offenses that only flail around because the defenses are so good.

I’m sure there are some good arguments for Tebow. You aren’t making many of them.

Besides UT and OU

I didn’t say that there were NO good defenses in the Big 12 or that there were NO good teams there. But, besides UT and OU, who I agree had excellent defenses, who else in the conference had good ones? Texas is basically playing one or two teams per year that had good Ds. Same for OU. The Big 12 is known for its OFFENSES and Vince and Colt weren’t playing against those. Tebow has played week in, week out against many of the toughest defenses in college football.

And do tell me which team OVERALL has had more success than the Gators in this decade? No one said the Gators were dominant every year, just that they have done better overall than any other team. I don’t even want to hear about USC and its ONE BCS Championship, a team that plays in a joke of a conference almost as bad as the ACC.

I agree the Pac-10 is consistently overrated

That doesn’t mean that USC is. They still deserve credit for their conference championships, wins in the Rose Bowl, and their BCS title (after all, it was undefeated). I think that 2005 team would have beaten any of the following champions we’ve seen so far.

I wish USC would face stiffer competition sometimes, but to their credit, when they play the big boys, they come on strong. Their losses are mostly brain farts against inferior Pac-10 opponents. They’ve waxed SEC opponents like Auburn and Arkansas in Carrol’s tenure.

Fact of the matter is, Florida’s success this decade has been relegated to two years, 2007 and 2008. I would think for a “team of the decade,” you remain relevant among the college football elite most, if not all, of the whole ten years. If you want to call the Gators the team of the past three years, go ahead. If you want to say “team of the decade,” you have a much tougher case to make than just trying to appeal to recent memory.

This:

If you want to call the Gators the team of the past three years, go ahead.

My argument for why ‘team of the decade’ is silly is below.

In any case

Thanks for dropping by. Sorry if the tone got heated, but I’m sure you understand our love of Vince Young. Come back anytime.

UF has had 29 losses in the last 10 years.

You’re ignoring terrible seasons like 2004’s 7-5 record and the two years of 8-5 records before that. How long have you been a gator fan? Surely, if it’s been a while, you remember Zook. You know y’all are only at .500 in bowl games since 2000?

UT only has 18 losses. If you’re talking about the last 3 years, UF has been better. If you’re really talking about OVERALL, UT has.

If NCs are most important to you:

USC has had 23 losses, 7 of which were in 2000. With 6 more in 2001, USC has lost 17 games in the last 8 seasons. USC has 2 MNCs just like UF, but USC actually went undefeated in their second MNC.

How about this, since obviously the SEC is the Lord of all conferences:

LSU has only lost 28 games since 2000, has 2 BCS MNC’s and as many SEC championships (3) as UF does. LSU has also only lost 2 bowl games (UT, Iowa). There’s an argument y’all may not even have had the best decade in the SEC!

No problem

Hey, I love Vince, too. I think he is greatness. He’s my younger son’s all time favorite player. So I understand.

No way any of Tebows teams

beat either team in the MNC in 2005

I’m sure someday Urban Meyer will have a chance to put on a ring that has “undefeated national champions” on it, but Tebow hasn’t, and probably won’t.

A National Champ is a National Champ

Who cares if the team is undefeated or not if they win the National Championship. Ask Auburn a few years ago if they would have taken one loss to win a MNC. Another stretch. And with the SEC being a tougher conference than the Big 12, Tebow has nothing to apologize for if the team loses occasionally.

Sometimes

Sometimes the SEC is tougher. Sometimes it’s not. You’re obviously living right smack in the middle of the Ess Eee See echo-chamber, though.

If Tebow has nothing to apologize for, perhaps there’s some other reason he chickened out of the presser.

It doesn't matter?

Right. It’s equally legitimate to win a national title without an undefeated record. Sure.

So you must support Boise State

By your logic, Boise State, not UT should have been in the championship game last year. After all, they were undefeated.

I hate to break it to ya, but a whole lot more folks agree with me than with you.

Have a good evening!

That's not what he said.

Basically what he said was that you get an M NC if you’re not undefeated whereas you may have a claim to a NC if you are undefeated.

(The M stands for mythical)

I'll all for a playoff system

I strongly advocate having a playoff system to determine a National Championship. It’s ridiculous not to have one. But, until then, the MNC is the way it is determined, so it doesn’t matter if you have a loss (or two), what matter is if you win the BCS Championship game. It’s the system the schools, including Florida and Texas agreed to play by.

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