...while I hesitate to distract anyone from the release of The Eyes of Texas 2009, I had to comment on a personal anecdote involving a school's academics. While previous posts have cursorily discussed UT's place in the US News "Best Colleges" Rankings, especially during the McFarland/Evans hatchet job, I want to highlight this anecdote as a vehicle to further explore the relationship between academic prestige and athletic prowess. With the new US News rankings only a few weeks away, this seemed like a good time to discuss the proper contexts for crowing about athletic championships.
After the jump, I hope to prevent some of you from being "that guy" while also providing a platform to discuss whether academic prestige--or a lack thereof--should play a major role in discussing athletics.
The story is pretty simple. Without providing too many details, I was placed in a group environment a few weeks ago with several other college students from across the country. As we were making our introductions, which included our name and school, one student stood out. Despite following an Ivy Leaguer--and students from several other prestigious colleges--the student smugly and proudly announced he attended the University of Tebow. Honestly, I can't overstate how poorly the introduction came across. The student later qualified his boasting by explaining "we win championships." While the University of Florida remains a solid school on similar academic ground with UT, the cringe-inducing smugness of the statement dramatically cut against the reality of the various college degrees within the room.
Perhaps the most frustrating question for any sports fan comes when someone asks "Why do you say 'we' for your team when you dont actually play on the team?"' I'm going to purposely avoid answering that question in this article in favor of looking at a deeper concept. When recounting this story to my girlfriend--who currently attends Virginia Law after graduating from William & Mary--she just shrugged her shoulders and invoked this deeper concept with her response.
She said "I've never really understood why any college student--including you--would feel so attached to the athletics of their school. The last thing I considered when applying to schools was athletics, and, while I always root for William & Mary and UVA, I care far more about the value of my degree than their record on the field. Since the point of going to college is to get a degree, and subsequently use that degree to get a job, I've never understood why athletics should matter for a college. And I especially dont understand someone bragging about their school's athletics when attempting to inflate the importance of their degree. That may be selfish, but it's true. But I know how deeply you care, and I respect that...I just dont get it."
Now, obviously, this isn't a ground-breaking idea, but I think it raises an interesting point of discussion. There's no exact formula for why students select a college, and everyone makes independent decisions based on an unlimited number of independent factors. Additionally, rankings widely differentiate between different colleges within a singular University. However, with its in-state tuition, the Top 10% rule, and last year's #47 US News Ranking, I'll defend the decision of any Texas high-schooler to attend UT to my grave. I wouldn't trade my first six years at UT for anything, and I couldn't be happier with the education I've received as an undergraduate and graduate student. While I agree that being a fan of a football team shouldn't solely prompt someone's college decision, I cannot pretend that my family's extensive connections to UT didn't lead to my youthful proclamations of wanting to become a Longhorn. In that sense, I'm quite glad my family didn't go to Texas Tech. On a side note, "Get your Guns Up? Nah, get your grades up and go to a real school" remains my favorite dig towards any non-OU opponent.
In any case, once a student has made their college decision, the question remains: should the gridiron/hardwood/diamond success of their school justify invoking braggadocio in a professional or academic environment among strangers? Ultimately, I think the seamless blending of athletics and academics remains justifiable, but it largely remains audience dependent.
Thoughts?
0 recs | 91 comments
I completely agree with you that national championships in football (or any other sport) shouldn’t add (or remove) value from a degree. Sadly, however, sometimes the TV exposure can go further than the fact that your (ChemE in my case) program is ranked in the top whatever (5) in the nation.
UT_BKC - July 22, 2009
this is going to sound really shallow but
in my soph year of hs I had no idea where I wanted to go/what to major in. I was just really getting into football at the time and was totally mesmerized by the longhorns first rose bowl and eventually the national championship season. As shallow as it is, I said to myself “That’s where I’m going, I’m going to UT”. I never applied anywhere else and didn’t care to. Now I’m majoring in Biomedical Engineering which has nothing to do with athletics but I like to think I have Texas football to thank for bringing me to such a great campus.
owenh - July 22, 2009
They aren't necessarily unrelated
I’ve got a degree from Notre Dame (save it, I know), and without football, it would certainly be more like Fordham. High profile is good, so long as it’s supported by strong academics. I’ve found good-natured jesting about college sports is pretty common among professionals. About half of the attorneys at my firm have some sort of college sports memento around their office. It could be a self-selecting lot – those who go to small schools never did “get it”, and instead sought other aspects of the college experience that are found at Colgate, etc. Few people really choose a school based purely on academics. Those who like the UT atmosphere (and sports are part of it) chose to go there, and admissions makes sure they are the equivalent of those who attend for mostly academic reasons. Anyway, the academic value of a degree fades pretty quickly once you start having to compile actual accomplishments, so it’s arguably immature to boast about your undergrad’s academic prowess after about age 28 or so, anyway. Wow, enough of this post.
Zona - July 23, 2009
Taking a tangent..
While the US News ranking of schools is probably the main tool used among most future college students, bear in mind that the US News formula for calculating rankings is one out of many, many possible.
Linked Here is an alternative ranking method and rankings sponsored by a prominent business magazine. UT does not make the top 200 due to great weight being placed on the value of education to the student ( small classes, debt out of school.. ).
And on a tangent of a tangent is this interesting post by a writer from the Cato Institute on education.
Sorry for deviating so much but this topic seemed very interesting to read about yesterday =].
I chose UT because it was #3 in my specialty and fell in love with college football afterward =].
Ultra Horn - July 23, 2009
*
Ultra Horn - July 23, 2009
Kind of annoying
When people brag to random strangers about “their” football/basketball/whatever team. Among friends, it’s all good, but it seems strange to me, particularly as I don’t really follow professional sports.
I root for our athletic teams partly because I went to school there, but also partly because I represented Texas athletically as well at the club sports level. Not being varsity didn’t make it any less heated and intense among the area schools, just less well-attended by the public.
I wore the burnt orange proudly in college, and I’ll cheer for those of my colleagues who do the same.
sessamoid - July 23, 2009
WTF
“University of Florida remains a solid school on similar academic ground with UT”
Um, no. Florida is not on similar academic ground at Texas. Both are large, flagship universities located in temperate climates. The similarities end there.
Texas maintains a higher academic profile and receives a much greater amount of federal research dollars. I agree that Texas is on similar academic ground with California (Berkley), Michigan, and North Carolina. That’s it. That’s the list.
The remainder of the Big 11, the remainder of the California system except Merced, and UVa have better academics and research than Florida. Outside Vanderbilt, the SEC remains a vast wasteland of academics. Great football, solid research, but poor academic profiles.
I have read several academic journal articles that show a strong correlation between successful athletics programs and academic programs. That is, people tend to think the University of Alabama and USC have better academics than they actually do because of those school’s success in football.
High school students, I suspect, choose schools on a variety of factors depending on the student. Texas Tech and Texas State get kids because of the schools’ prowess in beer drinking.
milevin - July 23, 2009
You are overrating UT...
…as much as I hate to admit it, Texas isn’t quite on the level of Cal-Berkeley, Michigan, and UNC. Not even close. It’s one of the reasons why I hate it when administrators speak of us as “the top public university in the country”—it’s just not true. It’s a neat line, but it undermines their credibility.
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/national-top-public
While you can quibble with the US News Rankings, they remain the most accepted metric. Texas is a Top-15 Public University, but we’re not even really pushing the Top-10. Of course, as I said earlier, there are specific colleges within UT that are ranked higher than the overall #15 Public University ranking.
Texas and Florida are probably closer than you think, even though Texas is definitely more well respected. They are both Public Ivies, and Texas is ranked only two spots ahead of Florida. While Texas has a slew of better graduate programs, the undergraduate rankings—as a whole—place the two schools in a very similar light.
I definitely agree with your sentiments over the purported correlation between athletics and academics in the perspective of high school students…I need to read some of those studies.
txtwstr7 - July 23, 2009
I agree...
…and this has always my one gripe with the University of Texas.
When you’re sitting on this, there’s no excuse for no being one of the top, if not the top, public university in the country. I realize the chart is from 2005, but I can’t quickly find a newer one, and my first child will be born within a few hours, so my time is short. :)
Yet we’re not. Txtwstr7 is exactly right. At the undergraduate level, UT is at what I’d call a second tier of universities — still very good, but not in the same group as UVa, Michigan, or Berkeley. I think Texas does approach the top tier, if not outright joining it, at the graduate level.
I tend to blame the Texas legislature for this. It dilutes the University of Texas brand, with far too many UT branches draining resources throughout the state, it funds way too many other university systems clamoring for equivalent resources, and, I hate to say it, the legislature, by my best impression, has made it pretty much politically impossible for UT-Austin to reduce overall undergraduate enrollment.
I haven’t studied this enough to know the answer, but how did California get it right and Texas didn’t? Not only is Berkeley regarded as a better flagship university of the primary state university system than UT-Austin is at the undergraduate level, but pretty much all of the of the schools of the UC system — UCLA, UCSD, UC-Irvine, etc. — are damn fine schools about on par with UT-Austin and are leagues ahead of the non-flagship universities in the UT system.
Hopkins Horn - July 23, 2009
It's ridiculous
My cousins go to UCSD and UCI, respectively. And amazingly, UCD is looked “down upon” in the same way we look down on Texas Tech (no offense, Pirate fans). So it’s super awesome to see six (!) UC schools, including UCD, listed above the first Texas school on that list.
Almost makes you want to move out to California to give your kids a better education.
jc25 - July 23, 2009
One possible reason
California has the UC system and the CSU system, period, at the four year level. There’s also a separate statewide community college system.
Texas not only has the UT system and the A&M system, but also the Texas Tech system, the Texas State system, the Houston system and the North Texas system with which it has to compete for resources.
No offense to our friends in Denton, but why the hell do we need an entirely separate University of North Texas System?!?
Hopkins Horn - July 23, 2009
They are about to wreck the whole thing...
A great university system requires stable funding and the state has gone completely nuts in trying to become a low-tax haven. The faculty I have talked to at schools like UCLA and UCI are very concerned about the deep level of cuts that are about to happen and will likely lose at least 10% of their tenured faculty over the next decade with hiring freezes looking to be almost permanent. In the short term the students will benefit as more prominent faculty will have to return to the classroom to fill in for adjuncts and lecturers who can’t be retained in the current environment, but that could hurt their research. Ultimately they will get out of the classroom and be replaced by even greater numbers of lecturers and non-tenured instructors, but pay and security will be greatly reduced and other states will likely suck of some of the more talented teachers. This will in all likelihood continue for the foreseeable future even if the overall economy turns around in the next couple of years. California has it much worse than most of the rest of the country both in terms of their overall economy and in the ability of their government to stem the tide now and to fix the mess in the future.
Rickyspub - July 23, 2009
I respectfully disagree
As someone that has degrees from both Texas and UC-Berkeley, there’s very little that would lead me to believe that Cal is better than Texas.
Now, I have to be quick (hopefully I’ll be able to expand later), but in my field (civil/environmental engineering) Texas was infinitely better at providing for and taking care of undergrads. The UC System has its prestige based on the ability to crank out PhDs. If you are either not interested in that pursuit or deemed not worthy of further education, the resources available to you (namely professor’s time) is dramatically reduced.
I’ve had friends teach at Cal and CSU/SFSU levels. They will, each one, say that the CSU/SFSU students were better, more inquisitive and more sociable than Cal. Impression was that at Cal, if you had to ask, you weren’t smart enough to be there. As a result, the critical discussion of ideas and concepts was lost on most of the classes.
Interestingly enough, I actually found the Cal experience more conservative than UT (surprising as it’s allegedly ultra-liberal) and the university atmosphere lacking (commuter school for the most part).
Regarding football (as the main sport), I was at UT when, well, let’s just say pre-Mack and not acknowledge the low points; I was at Cal pre-Tedford (if there are any schools that need a football boost, I’m accepting applications for MBA-ville). Cal games were fun -sitting in the corner of the end zone (actually laying out over three benches) and watching the action. The only near sellout – Nebraska, when NU brought 50K fans (coolest site I’ve ever seen and comfortably the best fan base I’ve encountered). Oddest part – 2 hours after the end of the game (surprisingly competetive), Berkeley bars were near empty and NU fans had already rolled out of town. That’s just not something you’d have experienced at UT.
Just my two cents. With that and paying state income taxes, you get nothing.
unknownidiot - July 23, 2009
5% Rule and Taxes, Maybe
I’m not sure if things have changed in California, but I know that up to 5 years ago (because of my Cousin), California had a 5% rule whereas Texas had a 10% rule for class rank allowing a student to enter any public university in the state.. There might be additional stipulations to their Top Class % rule too.
Secondly, we know that in general California has higher taxes. I don’t know if this would be true or not, but perhaps California public universities have more state funds allocated to them in a fiscal year? I know that in Texas, the fiscal budget for financing tuition at public universities has steadily declined for the past half-century. I’m not certain if that would have any impact on the quality of education, but it might?
Garfield3d - July 23, 2009
California Public schools cost more.
My parents lived in LA when my little sister graduated college, it was cheaper for her to go to TCU from out of state, than to go to Public school as in state in California.
billb - July 23, 2009
Are you sure about that? The total annual cost for attending UCLA, including dorm costs, estimated books, dining plan, and the “fees” they charge in lieu of tuition, stands at $26,522 . The total cost for attending TCU, including tuition and fees, books, dining plan, and dorm costs stands at $38,930. As TCU is a private college, there is no difference between in-state and out-of-state cost there.
burntorangehorn - July 24, 2009
I'm sure that was the case when my sister went.
She is in her 30’s now so prices have probably changed. Still, Caifornia Schools cost more, and yes there is no difference in the cost of tuition etc. from out of state for TCU, but there was a big difference in cost to get my sister back an forth to TCU. Also, I should note this is based on my father’s calculations for how much it would actually cost, including incidental expenses not included in the school’s estimate(driving for example-gas was a lot more expensive in California and my sister would likely drive a lot more) Travel, eating out, clothes, etc.
billb - July 24, 2009
My wife went to a Cal State school while we were there, right before we moved to Maryland. I could be wrong, but I really remember Cal schools to be cheaper than MD schools at the juco and university levels.
Texas is really, really inexpensive, but that doesn’t make Cal schools expensive.
burntorangehorn - July 25, 2009
Texas might be a step behind Cal and Michigan
But Texas is not a step behind UNC. US News is only the “most accepted metric” to people who don’t actually know anything about universities (unfortunately that includes a lot of high school students). The only reason Texas is ranked so low in US news is because their rankings inflate small schools. That’s the same reason Texas is behind so many California state schools.
Texas Wahoo - July 23, 2009
I agree re UNC
I tend to put it at an equivalent ranking as UT-Austin.
Hopkins Horn - July 23, 2009
"Texas and Florida are probably closer than you think, even though Texas is definitely more well respected. They are both Public Ivies, and Texas is ranked only two spots ahead of Florida."
This is why US News rankings are so absurd. Even thought Texas has better programs in almost every specialty, and even though Texas is more well respected by employers and academics, and even though Texas has more well-respected professors and alumni, because US News is the most popular ranking system, Texas and Florida are on par with each other.
Texas Wahoo - July 23, 2009
Let me clarify...
…since you posted a response to a response. I was responding to this statement:
I added some information that allowed for reasonable comparisons between the two schools. It was more of an attempt to boost up Florida than to deflate Texas. I should have more emphatically emphasized how I believe Texas is more well-respected than Florida, largely for the reasons you just mentioned. The point isn’t that Texas and Florida are the same, but instead to emphasize how Texas isn’t exactly on the top level, which is my number one pet peeve among administrators. I cannot even count how many times I’ve heard the “number one public university in the country” line get bandied about over the last few years.
Additionally, I feel pretty good about UT’s position in future rankings. The legislature has enacted changes to the Top 10% rule that will increase selectivity during admissions—that’s huge. Additionally, UT is also going to receive additional state funding while other schools are seeing their budgets get slashed. Furthermore, the ability of the Board of Regents to set tuition rates has remained undisturbed. Things bode well for the future.
I agree that the rankings are flawed—largely b/c schools blatantly attempt to game the systems—but they do exist.
txtwstr7 - July 23, 2009
I think we can pretty much agree then
I think Texas is top tier, but not the top school… at least not yet. Michigan, Cal, then Texas is how I would rank them.
Texas Wahoo - July 23, 2009
Texas is a quality school but
not among the absolute elite. Im a student in the UT cockrell school of engineering which is regarded as around top 10 in the country but my ventures into classes beyond my major brought high school to mind, but I was looking for blow off classes anyway so no harm done :P
owenh - July 23, 2009
All schools have blow-off classes
Especially for non-majors. You were looking for blow off classes for non-majors and you found them (sometimes you’re forced to take them because the courses for majors are only for those students). I don’t think this distinguishes UT from Michigan, UC, UVA, UNC, etc.
Texas Wahoo - July 23, 2009
Have to admit my experience in the UT school of engineering wasn't that great...
It certainly wasn’t that the courses were blow offs but the level of instruction was atrocious. Now granted, I wasn’t a very applied student in my early days at UT, but looking back my engineering profs were terrible at teaching. I hung around barely getting by until the end of my junior year and then switched majors. I obviously had less challenging subject matter in liberal arts, though my writing skills had so degraded in the engineering department my grades didn’t immediately improve, but I certainly felt there was some teaching going on rather than some guy frantically scribbling formulas on the board for 50 minutes. I still sometimes look back on it and wonder how I could have ever been a functioning electrical engineer if I had stepped off campus armed with what little I had learned in the department!
Rickyspub - July 23, 2009
For public schools? I’d say Virginia might be ahead of UT as well. I guess it could largely depend on whether we’re talking about the overall university, just undergrad, all non-professional (no med, law, etc.) schools, or what.
burntorangehorn - July 24, 2009
Beyond some level...
…of academic distinction, your education is what you make of it. Texas has a distinguished academic profile in many areas and its alums are rightly proud of that. Other schools strive to serve a different mission, such as land-grant institutions that are designed to provide an education to the people of the state who want to try for one, whether the student is a National Merit Scholar, a student who went to a poor high school, or a student who didn’t apply themselves in high school. How smart you are and how good you are at what you do is determined a lot more by personal factors than it is the name of the school you attended.
I chose my undergraduate school because it was the nearest school that had an accredited program in the major I had chosen, and it had a solid academic reputation in that major. It helped that it was a Big 12 school, meaning I would be able to see major sports events on campus, but that wasn’t the determining factor. When it came to choosing a graduate school, the school I chose was as highly ranked as any I was admitted to, and was located in a major legal market (Houston). Going to UH certainly wasn’t based on its current athletic reputation, although C-USA football can be entertaining in its own way.
TB - July 23, 2009
Thats a myth
That is such a cliche, your education is not what you make of it. All that matters is where you get your degree from everything else is On the Job Training chief. You could be the best student of all time at KSU and I could be a guy that took 6 years (and was a mediocre student) to get his Bachelors from Harvard and I would probably still have a job that makes more money coming right out of college. from Its all about where you get your degree from not what you learn. I’m a structural engineer and I have an above average salary for an engineer. Looking back on it, I probably did not need to go to college to do what I do as an engineer (save the OU jokes please). Its all about where you get your degree from which in turn gives you a higher starting point and then its job experience.
ThePhenomenon - July 23, 2009
Umm, OK...
…but I’m doing just fine, thanks.
TB - July 23, 2009
He's a Sooner, you can ignore him.
billyzane - July 23, 2009
There is some truth in this, at least at the point of graduation...
I have known guys who wouldn’t hire anyone who wasn’t an Ivy Leaguer. These were low-paying entry level jobs at that! I have found your mileage varies after you enter the workforce and things have a way of leveling out pretty quickly in favor of those who apply themselves to their work. In fact, when I lived in NYC I knew as many flunky types who couldn’t get a promotion with Ivy League educations as I did company executives who went to such ivory tower bastions as SUNY-Prospect and Pace University.
Rickyspub - July 23, 2009
True, but hell, I knew a number of Ivy Leaguers who, despite having their pristine degrees with very good grades, ended up having to enlist in the Army. In fact, early in my career I had an E-6 who was not even in his first term of enlistment, and he had his bachelor’s and master’s degrees from Yale. One of my best friends at the time went to Brown, another went to Wm and Mary, my running partner went to Cal Tech, and I knew two graduates of Notre Dame—all of whom were entry-level language geeks in the Army in those days. An Ivy League degree is indeed worth more than some others, but (1) being a spectacular student at most schools will trump being a barely-scraping-by student who only went to Harvard because he was a legacy, and (2) even a graduate of a top-tier university can have a problem finding a decent job if his major was one that does not feed into the workforce without additional training or graduate school (ahem…German, for instance).
burntorangehorn - July 24, 2009
Academics & Athletics
UT for me was an easy choice. It combined the cheapest in-state tuition rates with the premier accounting program in the nation and proximity to home. No matter what your major, UT is easily one of the best value schools in the nation for Texas residents. That being said, it’s only after I began attendance that I became a fan of UT athletics. Being a realist, I’ve always reconciled my fandom via the idea that every athletic championship won increases the visibility and standing of the University, thereby increasing the value of my degree (however marginally). Admittedly, this is an idea borrowed from Tom Wolfe’s I am Charlotte Simmons, but it works nontheless. I don’t think I could invest myself emotionally in a team that didn’t somehow have an impact on my life, albeit very negligable.
UTexasCPA - July 23, 2009
I'm an odd duck
When I was searching out colleges to apply to in high school, my only thought was to get the hell out of Texas after noticing the small minds and realizing that going out of state would benefit me by being “farther than at home Where small experience grows”, as Shakespeare said.
Athletics were the farthest thing from my mind, and I ended up here in DC at American University, where men’s athletics consist of a sometimes-decent basketball team, a soccer team, wrestling, and swimming/diving. (How we’re D1 boggles my mind.)
I could’ve gone straight to UT having been in the top 10%, but I chose not to – it had more to do with wanting to do something different from the majority of my high school’s alumni who either went to TSU or UT or any of the other schools in a 50 mile radius.
Do I wish I had gone to UT instead? Sometimes, yes. Being away from Texas made me realize how much I appreciate it and how proud I am to be a Texan. UT began to represent everything Texas to me, and so its athletics had a bigger significance since it’s the most recognizable symbol of Texas the state to the rest of the country.
I’m still glad I got a degree outside of the state, so when I inevitably move back I’ll hopefully seem to come with a different perspective. But again, athletics never had a hand in my decision of colleges, nor was it a factor in my college life (except for rooting for UT on TV).
TXinDC - July 23, 2009
In defense of "that guy"
Let’s say, a year from now, we’ve come off an academic year which saw Texas win championships in football, basketball and baseball. It’s certainly possible. Who on this board can honestly say that they wouldn’t become some version of “that guy”?
(crickets chirping)
We almost demand that someone from UF play the role of “that guy” right now. Hell, if I was introduced to someone who was a UF fan, and the UF fan didn’t naturally become “that guy,” I’d probably start giving him some audible cues so that he could become “that guy”.
The issue is whether one can pull off being “that guy” with the proper ratio of good humor versus insufferable smugitude. If we get to be “those guys” in a year, just imagine the worst Duke fan from the last 15 years and act oppositely.
Hopkins Horn - July 23, 2009
My choice, UVA sports, Athletics vs. Academics
I did not choose Texas because of the sports, although it played a very small role. I actually grew up a Big Ten fan and almost went to Illinois, which is where my father went. I decided to stay closer to home (but not too close) because Texas had a really good ChemE program and the in state tuition + scholarship made it much cheaper than private schools or out of state public schools. The athletics programs did tip the scales slightly against Rice and towards Texas, just because I’ve always loved college sports and I couldn’t imagine rooting for Rice.
As for your girlfriend at Virginia, the sports there are completely different. I graduated from UVA law three years ago and went to a couple of football games and the atmosphere is completely different. Most of the undergrads dress up and you stand on this large uncomfortable hill. I guess I just never really got into it. You should definitely check out the UVA baseball games, they are a lot of fun and their park is beautiful. The basketball games were fun, but the team is not nearly as good now, so who knows.
Athletics success in the more popular sports definitely helps academics. While it doesn’t really have any effect on the quality of the education, it certainly helps get the school’s name out there. After the 2005 football season, applications to UT went through the roof (which helps their US News rankings, because they have to reject more people).
Texas Wahoo - July 23, 2009
I interned at the Army JAG School last summer...
…so I spent nearly 10 weeks in Charlottesville. What a wonderful campus. I was hoping they would get to host games during the NCAA Baseball tournament, but it didnt happen.
My girlfriend has commented heavily on the undergraduate attire for football games and other events. She finds it a little ridiculous, especially when she gets hit on by undergrads flaunting their popped collars.
With the current crash of the legal market, I’m sad to report that Feb Club at UVA Law was a lot less “interesting” than in previous years…
txtwstr7 - July 23, 2009
A good friend of mine and my wife’s just finished up at Georgetown, and she’s really sweating this crash. Many of the other grads who interned last summer and received offers are getting just half ($80K) their promised salary to find other work for a year.
burntorangehorn - July 24, 2009
It's better than getting their offers revoked.
Texas Wahoo - July 24, 2009
Guess so, and it’s not like they’re likely to starve on $80K plus whatever they earn in the meantime. Heck, I’m the primary breadwinner in my house, and I’m just a few rungs over that figure myself.
burntorangehorn - July 24, 2009
I would disagree that going to college should be reduced to finding a job
I know that’s the popular sentiment of our present time, but upper-level studies was originally considered a way to enrich oneself with knowledge and experience, not a way simply to make more money. There are plenty of people who find jobs later that are not in line with their college major, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m not saying people should just be impractical, but I actually find it sad that the current attitudes on universities are their ability to be factories that churn out workers. They are places of higher learning, which may lead to a high paying job but it may not.
I got both an accounting degree and a philosophy degree from UT, and I know UT is ranked fairly high in both categories in the country. However, part of what bugged me about my fellow business students was how they woodenly looked at the high ranking of the McCombs Business School and their respective GPAs as tickets to a “dream job” (and many of them end up unhappy as they become corporate slaves). There are many smart people in the business school, but instead of looking at being truly educated, they were artificially concerned about buttering up to professors and recruiters to be able to land a job. It’s of course good to be concerned for the future, but instead of worrying about their personal maturity and education, they simply go through the motions and regurgitate in some classes in order to get that A, promptly letting everything flutter out of their heads right after that class.
Thus, with all due respect, I disagree with your girlfriend; I don’t think it should be the ultimate point of college to land you a job (though you certainly have to question the quality of the school’s education if it’s not respected anywhere). The point is to become a more enriched, educated person, and that does not always tie into particular rankings. These days, even the Ivy league is overrated, with an increased emphasis on “personal fit” and culture. Therefore, while nobody should come to Texas because of sports fandom, it is an experience that is worth considering as you choose a university. You don’t do all your learning, maturing, and experiencing in the classroom.
TheElusiveShadow - July 23, 2009
I painted her a little unfairly...
…she went to William & Mary because she fell in love with the campus and loved everything about their chemistry program. She specifically chose it over several higher ranked schools, due to the fact she thought it would provide a better educational experience. That said, she thought it was ranked highly enough to where it wouldnt affect her ability to get a job.
Similarly, she got into Harvard Law, but she instead accepted a sizable scholarship at UVA to save money and avoid going too far into debt. More importantly, she strongly disliked the environment at Harvard Law and said she’s never met anyone who regretted their decision to attend UVA Law, which is still a Top 10 law school.
While she didnt just solely look at rankings and prestige, athletics still remained the least of her concerns.
txtwstr7 - July 23, 2009
Fair enough
Especially for graduate level studies, I imagine athletics should not be a concern at all. I’d be a bit baffled if somebody chose Law School X because they had a good basketball team.
TheElusiveShadow - July 23, 2009
I’d like to finally attend and subsequently graduate from UT, so I’m planning on an LL.M. sometime in maybe 2015.
burntorangehorn - July 24, 2009
The 'she' is an important variable in this anecdote!
I did know one classmate when I was at UT who probably chose UT in large part for the athletics. She was a big time fan, but most of the other women I have known didn’t seem to care and didn’t often go to the games.
Rickyspub - July 23, 2009
On a side note
The recent changes to the Top 10% rule should help UT, and I think it’s not enough. Instead of putting a limit on the Top 10%, I think they should couple that rule with other factors that are universal across the board, such as SAT/ACT scores, AP classes and tests, etc. That help lessen the incredible academic distance between schools across the state. Being the valedictorian at one school, regrettably, is not always equal to even being in the Top 15% at another. I don’t think it is all unreasonable to expect the Top 10% to have a certain minimum SAT score and to have taken AP courses in order to get automatic admission to a school like Texas. Not only do I think this would dramatically lessen the amount of students getting auto admissions, this will allow those who, for whatever reason, are not in the Top 10% or otherwise just miss that minimum score to be considered on other merits.
TheElusiveShadow - July 23, 2009
Previous Studies
There are some studies that have been carried out to determine the effect that athletic success has on the increase of applications at these successful schools. I took a Comparative Economic Theory writing component class last month in the first summer sesh at UT, and one of my peers wrote his paper on such an article.
I had to critique it, and from what I can remember, there was a 2-8% increase in applications for schools whose teams win the BCS national championship. So there is some merit to the idea that athletic success has an influence over where people decide to go to apply. Especially males.
prince8846 - July 23, 2009
I've seen this before, this is even true for Ivy League caliber schools, oddly.
pleaseplaykindle - July 23, 2009
I've seen that in action
When I lived in Houston, I went to a couple high school recruiting functions back in 2007. They line the schools up alphabetically, so K-State was next to LSU, at Lamar High School in Houston. I swear to God, every kid that came through that hallway stopped at the LSU table to fill out their little information form. Not that I was expecting a bunch of kids from Houston to want to go freeze their balls off at K-State, but it truly was amazing to see the line of kids wanting information about LSU.
TB - July 23, 2009
Perhaps a slightly different perspective
Hi Guys,
I find this discussion extremely interesting and have given it some thought before. Let me start by saying that I first came to UT as a 17 yr old freshman from quite literally the other side of the world (I’m Indian by birth but lived in the Middle East my entire life). When I was applying to colleges I knew I wanted to major in Computer Science (I know, shocking for someone who’s Indian!).
Also, let me tell you that growing up in that part of the world, the ONLY kind of “Football” you are ever exposed to is the kind you kick around. So essentially, I was applying to a whole bunch of colleges and universities in the US (I ended up applying to 14 of them) based purely on the US News rankings. I had visited the US just once before on Vacation when I was a freshman in High School and had never even seen what an American College campus looks like.
So to me, things like campus like and athletics held little meaning at the time of my application. All I knew was that UT was a Top 50 school with a Top 10 CS program. I had heard about some of the great Professors there but that was it.
It was only after I got to UT (Fall, 2000) that I realized that I in fact hit the Jackpot! At the time, I was on the waiting list for Carnegie Mellon University as well and that was quite obviously my dream school based purely on academics.
However, almost 10 years later and with much acquired wisdom, I am sooo glad that CMU rejected me and I came to UT. There is just no way any other school would have provided me that quitessential college experience that UT did. In a lot of ways, UT is the perfect combination of Academics and extra-curricular activities.
Anyway, I seem to have gone of on a tangent. My point was that even though I choose UT purely on academic grounds, I couldn’t be prouder of our athletic achievement. Infact, you will often find me donning our 05 National Championship at work and I have all sorts of UT stuff hanging in my office (I work in the tech sector and dress code isn’t much of an issue).
As to the point your girlfriend made about referring to college teams as “our” teams, I think its perfectly reasonable. As all of us know on this blog, we live and die with every UT game. I clearly remember those 5 weekends from 2000 to 2005 when we got killed by OU. Not one of us at Simkins had a good weekend. We were all depressed and hurting. Our lives are soo emotionally entangled with the fortunes of our teams that we do feel a certain level of possessiveness. I guess I don’t have to spell this out to any of you here. It just upsets me when people from schools that have no sports teams to speak of try and take the Holier than Thou route and even look down on us sports freaks. They will never know what it means to feel connected to something much bigger than yourself.
Anyways, I’ve rambled on enough. Hope my comments make sense!
Any
LonghornForLife - July 23, 2009
Great perspective!
Thanks for sharing your ‘unique’ road to Longhorn-dom. ‘Unique’ in that you are sharing this since UT has one of the largest international enrollments in the country!
Rickyspub - July 23, 2009
Texas is university, not a college and as such is among the very best in the country
some people here and a good number of people in the general public seem to conflate “undergraduate rank” with school rank or prestige. i think this is a mistake. if you just went to UT undergrad as I did, then fine, it certainly offers some great educational opportunities. The undergrad isnt ranked that high because of the idiotic top 10% rule and the fact that about 10 million people are let in every year. however, if you want to talk about overall quality of programs (including graduate programs) and strength as a research university then you all are undervaluing Texas big time. UNC, Virginia, William and Mary and many private schools (Vanderbilt, Duke and other heavy hitters) are not considered “better” than Texas by many academics, especially those in research oriented fields. Considering graduate / research strength the consensus is something like this for publics: Cal, Michigan and UCLA are at the top by a good margin. Texas, Wisconsin, Illinois, Washington, UCSD, UNC and others follow. To illustrate, Texas approximate rankings are as follows (includes public and private, taken from U.S. news) –
law – 16
education – 7
psychology – top 15
philosophy – top 20
engineering – 11
chemistry – 12
biology – 23
computer science – top 15
music – top 10
business – top 20
earth science – top 10
physics – 16
I could go on but I tried to list many of the biggest and most important areas of study (i’m sure i missed some important areas). maybe you noticed a theme . . . Texas is one of the top UNIVERSITIES in the nation across the board. the overcrowded undergraduate unit should not be confused with the value of a degree. I believe it is best to think about universities as a whole for purposes of academic prestige. UT accounting students shouldnt put themselves up with Harvard and Stanford and regular UT undergrad shouldnt think they are 46 superior schools in the coutnry (to think UC-Davis, UC-Irvine, UCSB, Lehigh and others are better than Texas is laughable). just my 2cents
longhornSTL - July 23, 2009
The "name brand"
Is starting to diminish. It’s still a big deal for foreigners to think Ivy League (particularly among Asians), but there’s a growing understanding that fit and culture are more important, as well as considering one’s academic emphasis. If you want to get an MPA, it’s probably a heck of lot smarter and cost efficient, all things being equal, to seek such a thing at Texas than at an Ivy League school. Texas even recently lured away one of Harvard’s top philosophy professors.
My sister’s first roommate got accepted to Stanford, Harvard, and Yale. She visited all of them, and she particularly despised the culture at Harvard and Yale. She chose Texas over all those schools. There’s more to be said about the quality of a university’s experience than just debatable rankings. I think there’s a growing understanding of this, especially at the undergraduate level.
TheElusiveShadow - July 23, 2009
For the record...
…UT Law is now ranked 15th.
T-14 or bust, yo!
txtwstr7 - July 23, 2009
ha! the number of schools that claim they're T-14 is hilarious.
I love that it grew to t-14 from t-10 because so many schools were claiming they were top 10. Pretty soon, you’re going to have Fordham claiming they’re pretty much the same as Columbia and NYU. T-30 here we come!
billyzane - July 23, 2009
Thought T-14
was because some of the traditionally top 10 schools dropped in ranking, hence, T-14 included all of those schools.
nahmorlah - July 24, 2009
My understanding...
is that it’s just a made-up number because there’s rarely much movement in or out of the top 14 schools. and so 14 schools are always in the top 14 in some order. But by the same token, the top 18 schools are pretty much always the same (Texas, UCLA, USC and Vandy) so why not T-18?
In reality it basically refers to all the schools that claim to be “top-10” law schools. But by definition, there are only 10 top-10 schools so a new term developed to replace top-10. But honestly, I think there’s a pretty big dropoff after #8. To me, the groupings look more like this (2 and 3 could also pretty much be combined):
1. Yale
2. Harvard, Stanford, NYU, Columbia
3. Chicago, Penn, Berkeley
4. Michigan, Northwestern, UVA, Duke
5. Cornell, GTown, Texas, UCLA, Vandy, USC
I can’t remember if I had a point to this or not.
billyzane - July 24, 2009
About right, although the public schools/Penn tend to move around a lot
Yale
Harvard, Stanford
Columbia, NYU, Chicago
Penn, Mich, UVA, Berkeley
Duke, Cornell, Northwestern, GTown
Texas, UCLA, Vandy, USC
Chicago has been moving down, Penn and Duke have been moving up, but it’s hard to tell if it’s a trend or not yet.
Texas Wahoo - July 24, 2009
This may have changed, but most people I meet around here respect GW more than Georgetown, at least in terms of actual academic quality. If we’re going on brand name, sure, Georgetown’s better, but I think the GW-GULC issue is an example of the kind of major flaws in the US News rankings.
burntorangehorn - July 25, 2009
In IP, GW is better
Texas Wahoo - July 27, 2009
oops, should read "Texas is a university"
longhornSTL - July 23, 2009
Yes and NO
I had always assumed that people understood the University of Texas is a solid undergraduate education, but it does not stand up to the top tier Public Universities in reputation. You can quibble about the quality of the actual education, but outside Texas it does not garner the same respect that UNC, Michigan, and especially Berkley and UVA bring to the table. Additionally, out east it usually slots behind Wisconsin and Vanderbilt as well.
Secondly, I don’t think anyone quibbles that UT’s graduate programs are among the best in the country. You can argue about whether they stand up to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and Chicago, but a science, business or law graduate degree from UT makes you a big swinging d*ck anywhere.
Thirdly, in an odd sort of way, the 10% rule has created a perception about Texas’ undergrad program academic reputation because it has gotten so hard to get in now. When I applied to schools in 92, Texas was our safety school. I went East to a liberal arts college because of the general perception that while Texas was ok, most of the students in the top tier of my highschool (Westlake) didn’t want to go because of excessive class size, heavy use of TA’s instead of tenured Professor at the undergraduate levels, and the schools reputation as a research institute that didn’t care about undergrads.
I think the 10% rule has created a perception in state that Texas is good because it’s difficult to get into. But nobody outside of Texas knows, or frankly cares about that.
Having said all this, Texas still represents, for my money, one of the best bang for the bucks you can get, given the low cost of instate tuition.
On the topic at hand, having gone to a DIII school with a terrible football team, the reputation of your sports teams is not only meaningless in a professional environment, mentioning it reveals you as a rube of the first order.
BatesHorn - July 23, 2009
Your experience on the East Coast must be very different than mine
Texas Wahoo - July 23, 2009
I agree with BatesHorn...
Having a Texas degree isn’t anything to brag about in the North East or in NYC. In fact you learn just how prestigious and exclusive some of these small liberal arts colleges you never heard of are up here. If you are in academia, I don’t think other PhDs are likely to envy a Texas PhD any more than from any other public institution. An Ivy League or Stanford PhD still carry cache in many fields.
Vanderbilt is a private institution.
Rickyspub - July 23, 2009
I guess I'm outnumbered
Here in DC I find most of the more educated people I come accross lump Texas in with Cal/Mich/UVA/UCLA. On the streets of DC it might be more known for its football team, but most of the people I spend any time with know it as one of the top public universities.
Texas Wahoo - July 23, 2009
Nah, I'm with you.
See my comment below.
billyzane - July 23, 2009
South of NYC and Philly you could be right...
I would imagine Texas has prestige in the southern part of the East Coast in large part because the average person is going to be impressed with the sports and those in business will have likely had more contact with UT grads and certainly the overall university profile is weaker (not as many high $$$ liberal arts colleges as in the Northeast and UT is going to be as impressive or more impressive than the flagship schools in most southern states). I have found up here college sports aren’t followed that closely, if you went to Ithaca College or Holy Cross you probably just don’t get up for college football.
Rickyspub - July 24, 2009
Billyzane is in NYC if I'm not mistaken
My point was that people know it as a great university, separate and apart from the football team.
Texas Wahoo - July 24, 2009
Law School in NYC, Live in NYC, Work in NYC
The vast majority of people recognize what a good school Texas is, apart from the academics and social scene of Austin.
billyzane - July 24, 2009
Have to say, I didn't see it when I lived there...
People were interested that I was from the state, but having a UT degree didn’t cause most to raise an eyebrow (nor did it particularly open any windows, in fact my much more useless Master’s Degree for Illinois seemed to attract more attention when educational background was discussed). A few certainly had a negative perception of large public universities. College football fans (generally fellow transplants from down South) were more likely to show an interest in my being an alumnus, but that generally meant academics weren’t part of the discussion.
Rickyspub - July 24, 2009
Rickyspub
I see the exact same thing. UT undergrad, Illinois grad, living in Ohio.
Speedway - August 10, 2009
In the NE and Mid-Atlantic, sports are indeed followed…if you count basketball as a sport.
burntorangehorn - July 26, 2009
I disagree with this
The 10% rule has created the perception that it is now easier to get into Texas, at least for many. For competitive schools like Westlake in Austin or Clements in Houston, it makes things difficult, but for a lot of schools in Texas, getting in the top 10% means you simply went to class.
I graduated high school much later than you, and I think the reputation of Texas’ undergraduate program has increased since then. Now people are slamming the Top 10% rule for shoving out some of our bright students who go to competitive high schools in favor of students who become valedictorians at their school with 3.4 GPAs.
TheElusiveShadow - July 23, 2009
thoughts
1. First of all, +1 on the Liar’s Poker reference.
2. I can’t speak for ‘92, but recently, I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that UT is a desirable choice for top students. I’ve seen plenty of instances of valedictorians, salutatorians, or top 10 overall kids from solid high schools (like my alma mater, Dulles) that actually want to go UT as their primary choice.
3. While UT may not carry the same cache as the Ivies, the top tier liberal colleges, or even the very best public universities, it carries a lot of weight within and around the state of Texas. This becomes appealing if, upon graduation, you plan to stay in Texas. And naturally, most people do end up staying. This seems especially true in business (and especially the energy industry—you’ll notice most McCombs job postings are for Houston or Dallas) and medicine (they’ll end up going to one of the medical or dental branches in Texas, or to A&M vet school). So if you’re going to end up in Texas anyway, why not save a lot of dollars and go to UT for an education?
4. Further, from my business experience, the reputation of your sports team is very meaningful in a professional environment. I don’t doubt that I come off as a rube sometimes (especially to my A&M colleagues), but college sports banter means a lot to most workers in Texas business, from the entry levels all the way on to upper management.
jc25 - July 23, 2009
#4 is also very true in law school...(eom)
nahmorlah - July 23, 2009
4 is underrated
I gave a presentation to Wisconsin’s Revenue Secretary a few years ago and he asked me where I did my undergraduate work. When I said Texas he flashed me hook ‘em horns and started talking about Vince Young. The sports don’t make the school, but they are often the most visible component of the school’s brand.
Bob LaBlog - July 24, 2009
Wait…are you a UT graduate? And you think you come off as a rube? To aTm graduates?
burntorangehorn - July 25, 2009
I don't think this is true anymore.
I went to a top 5 law school a couple of years ago full of kids out of undergrad at Princeton, Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Penn, etc. and they universally respected UT as an academic institution. In fact, I think they respected it way more than I did. On the first day of my 1L year, the dean read off the largest feeder undergrads to the law school in my class and Texas was 3rd, with 14 people, behind only Columbia and Penn.
You’re always going to get pricks who think it’s Ivy or bust, just as you’re always going to get state schoolers who think that everyone from an Ivy is a prick, but the reputation of Texas, at least today, is that of an excellent school, a half-step down from UVA, Michigan and Berkeley, the only public schools that are more or less on par with the elite private schools. And that’s more or less where I’d put it too.
billyzane - July 23, 2009
To follow up
This is my thought actually. I believe Texas has a very good reputation, a half a step down from UVA, Michigan, and Berkley. I’ve always felt that being a Texas grad is good for reputation.
As far as East Coast liberal arts vs. Texas, when I moved back home after school, everyone thought I went to community college or something. In fact, I elected to move back east where I could get some cache with my degree as the only other option was to go to graduate school at UT if I wanted to have a good job in Texas. I would posit that Texas is nearly on par reputation wise in state with Ivy’s. I’ve actually counseled my cousins that if they intend to live in Texas after college, they need to go to UT.
Regarding 10% my perception is colored by friends of my mom in Westlake who have kids who go into Duke or Michigan but not Texas, which is just sort of crazy.
And my bad on Vanderbilt.
BatesHorn - July 29, 2009
First of all, let me say I was pleased with my education from UT and so was my older brother...
I don’t think I can begin to describe the differences between us academically, but it definitely gives two perspectives to a situation.
My brother scored such a high score on the SAT, he claimed the reason he didn’t have a perfect score was because of misgrading…..seriously. He was accepted to Harvard and MIT, but even with scholarships was way too expensive. He went to UT and loved it. After UT, he did a master’s in England and went on to get an MBA from the top program in France(or #2 depending on the year). He has spent his professional career in NYC.
He went to school at grad schools with many people from Ivy League degrees, but generally just says they have a lil’ bit edge up on the job search at the beginning…..maybe.
He makes fun of private schools like Vanderbilt, William & Mary(no offense to your g/f twstr), etc that people attend b/c their parents have the money and they weren’t quite smart enough to get into Ivy Leagues.
I was just an education major(and scored over 300 points lower than him on the SAT) and really liked UT b/c my brother went here and I wanted to attend with the UT football program factoring heavily into my decision. The clout UT carries also helped.
We both love UT and are avid supporters of UT athletics and both involved with the Texas Exes. We went completely different routes, but both found UT to be very benficial to getting us to where we needed to go.
At the end of the day, to each his own. If somebody wants to go to a small, private school and wants to spend their money, go ahead. My dad says even after UT went up in tuition during my time, it’s still one of the best deals going. I just know every day when I wake up, it’s a great day to be a Longhorn! HOOK EM!
SneezyBeltran - July 23, 2009
"He makes fun of private schools like Vanderbilt, William & Mary(no offense to your g/f twstr), etc that people attend b/c their parents have the money and they weren’t quite smart enough to get into Ivy Leagues."
William and Mary is a public school and has been since 1906.
Texas Wahoo - July 23, 2009
ok, my bad
SneezyBeltran - July 24, 2009
Therefore, he didn't make fun of private schools.
Moron public schoolers.
/joke
run Bevo run - July 24, 2009
Truly fantastic stuff here
I felt compelled to come over and add my two cents.
Missouri is coming off of its most successful athletic year in a long, long time, perhaps ever. Right or wrong, it has brought A LOT of attention to the university and some of the academic endeavors upon which the school has embarked. Mizzou’s admissions department cited a major upswing in applications directly following Missouri’s 2007 football season as well as an increase in spring tours after Missouri’s Elite Eight run in 2008. While athletics have nearly nothing to do with the value of a degree, they are a fantastic pride point for a university, and there’s something to be said for that.
Missouri athletic director Mike Alden has continually used a metaphor to describe the symbiotic relationship, saying that athletics are “the front porch to the house.” While it’s not structurally imperative, in certain cases, it greatly affects how people perceive you and how “welcoming” what you have to offer can be. Just as it rings true at Missouri, I’m sure it rings especially true at a place like the University of Texas.
RPT - July 24, 2009
A mere 11 years ago...
…former K-State president Jon Wefald said almost the exact same thing:
TB - July 24, 2009
Alden = Wefald in the making?
NO NO NO NO NO….
ABORT. BAIL.
RPT - July 24, 2009
Wefald was just fine...
…for his first 15 years. The last five, well…
TB - July 24, 2009
Branding
It’s all marketing. The function of athletics is to advance the ‘brand’ of the university. Raising public awareness translates into all kinds of competitive advantages.
Caradoc - July 24, 2009
OU
OU not even in the top 100! wow, stoops needs to lobby this magazine quickly before
this gets out of hand. intelligent football players might, God-forbid start considering
other schools!!
ut1ou2 - July 24, 2009
From a Berkeley perspective...
Collegiate athletics is an intriguing phenomenon in which its main draw or popular appeal is not based on the competition of particular sports teams within their respective activities and arenas, but more importantly that a method is presented whereby two institutions of higher learning are seeming battling one another in a non-academic setting. Universities do not have objective or particular methods of direct comparison, besides outright subjective and methodologically questional surveys and studies. Football for example is one way to make a direct analysis of one university versus another, that is not offered in any seemingly meaningful academic arena (unless we are talking about debate competitions and the like). Collegiate sports is not quite the front porch to the house, it is more like the whole front yard with the grassy lawn plus with the front facade; collegiate athletics offers us a sound methodogy for comparing colleges like houses on a street without any third party (US News) trying to impute that universities should be examined in an arbitrarily determine method.
Back in high school, I was in an elite swim club in San Diego (but a comparably average swimmer), and on my team were two ladies, Blake Hayter (http://www.calbears.com/sports/w-swim/mtt/hayter_blake00.html), who set an NCAA record a few years ago, and Jen Wesley (http://www.calbears.com/sports/w-swim/mtt/wesley_jenna00.html), who were offered and accepted scholarships to swim for school by the name of “Cal”…at the time, I was unaware of what school that name refered to in particular, and I myself had not given much thought to my college selection process (early on I was thinking about Pepperdine and maybe USC, but I was thinking the most about sticking close to home and going to UC San Diego). After hearing that these two stud swimmers were going to “Cal,” I hit up Google, and very quickly I was completely, absolutely, dead-on-the-ball, damn-it-to-hell sure that I wanted my undergraduate studies to be in Berkeley…I made my choice to apply to the highest ranked public university in the world based, primarily, on listening to the college choices of a pair of swimmers…
Collegiate athletics matter differently depending on the person, but in regards to the topic of the main post, athletics is a popular means of measure because it is the ONLY objective measure, a seemingly unequivocally non-biased comparison between one school and another. Although using such a measure has its glaring shortcomings (22 men on gridiron will dictate how schools with thousands of students will be compared to one another this fall), it leaves us with finality and little grumbling, compared to seething outrage which might be generated by a shitty survey by a magazine no one reads except for the purpose of knowing what they think about your school.
But athletics matter outside of their respective arenas. USC has seen its donor offerings multiply and its academic rankings skyrocketing since Pete Carroll took over college football. This is one way that those seemingly stupid rankings can reflect reality – a good athletic program can bring in revenue and aid with the maintenance and improving of a school’s academic offerings.
That said, I am really perplexed as to why Oklahoma in particular, a college football blue-blood and dominant collegiate athletic program in its own right, does so terribly in academic surveys. You would think that a non-SEC school with a very strong sporting pedigree would be able to muster climbing into the Top 100 of American public universities…
Strykur - July 26, 2009
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