Ideally, early enrollee Connor Brewer would redshirt his first year at Texas (Photo courtesy of Under Armour).
The start of the spring semester at Texas on Tuesday also marked the first day of classes on the 40 Acres for the six early enrollees from the 2012 class -- quarterback Connor Brewer, offensive lineman Camrhon Hughes, linebacker Alex De La Torre, defensive back Orlando Thomas, and the two junior college prospects, offensive tackle Donald Hawkins and defensive tackle Brandon Moore.
As is typical with early enrollees, the expectations for each new Longhorn are vastly different, with several players expected to contribute early and several expected to need some growth and development time at Texas before contributing. Here's a look at what Texas needs and wants from each this spring.
Connor Brewer -- Expected to compete with Case McCoy for the back-up job behind David Ash, the ideal situation would be for Brewer to take a redshirt season to give him time to develop and avoid wasting a year of eligibility, as happened to McCoy. And even though McCoy apparently didn't receive the news he wanted when he put out transfer feelers, there are still no guarantees that he will be with the team past the spring, increasing the pressure on Brewer to emerge as a capable back-up. There's also an outside shot that Brewer could give David Ash some serious competition for the starting job, but as polished as Brewer is -- more polished than Ash out of high school -- expect a transition period as Brewer gets used to the offense and the speed of the Texas defense.
Donald Hawkins -- Expectations for the JUCO tackle transfer are perhaps as high or higher than any other incoming player, certainly higher than any of the other early enrollees. Expected to compete for and win a starting tackle job this spring, Hawkins is one of the keys on the offensive line going into 2012 because of his ability to solidify a tackle position, which would allow Trey Hopkins to move back inside to guard. Mack Brown's recruiting pitch to Hawkins was that he would have a chance to start immediately -- now the impetus is on Hawkins to make Brown's prediction come true.
Camrhon Hughes -- The massive, physically imposing Hughes is known as one of the more raw prospects in the class and probably the most raw offensive linemen of the four Texas currently has committed or on campus in the 2012 class. As a result, the expectations are pretty low for Hughes at this point -- simply to come in, work hard, increase his strength, and prepare to contribute down the road.
Brandon Moore -- The mammoth 6-5, 330-pounder was recruited because of his previous relationship with Bo Davis when the current Texas defensive line coach was the coach at Alabama. With Kheeston Randall departing, Davis is looking for a defensive tackle to do the dirty work lined up over the center. While Moore was not one of the top 50 JUCO players in the country for the 2012 class, he does have big-time college experience at the highest level and should step right into the defensive tackle rotation -- as long as he can hold off Ashton Dorsey, who may play more over the ball after spending most of 2011 as a three tech.
Alex De La Torre -- Perhaps the least-regarded prospect of the 2012 commits, at least in this writer's estimation, talking about DLT's skills devolves into a discussion of intangibles just as quickly as it does with Case McCoy, in this case in regards to his instincts. Undersized for a linebacker at 6-0 and lacking muscle definition, the coach's son isn't expected to contribute early at a position loaded with depth. After playing some fullback for Ryan, DLT's best chance of getting on the field quickly could be by making a position change. However, the instincts that DLT does have for the linebacker position -- his best attribute as a prospect -- may keep him there unless the other options at fullback completely flop.
Orlando Thomas -- The former high school quarterback hasn't gotten many reps at defensive back -- he didn't play both ways for Copperas Cove during the football season or in 7on7 -- Thomas nonetheless impressed Texas coaches there during a summer camp and recorded an interception at defensive back during the Offense-Defense Bowl. So despite the physical tools Thomas has, expect him to need some time to transition to the position full time. Add in the depth at both safety and cornerback and Thomas starts looking like a redshirt candidate unless he shows some incredible aptitude for the position and can vault past older players.
So, Texas fans, what are you looking for from these players this spring? Which do you expect to contribute next fall? Who will have the highest expectations placed upon them?
0recs |
242
comments
Comments
Easy choice in the poll
Almost every post and comment I’ve seen mentioning Hawkins seems to assume that he’s going to be able to step right in and start at right or even left tackle. That’s no small task, even for a guy who is almost certainly physically ready for it. I’m really, really glad he’s going to participate in spring practice and be around his teammates from here through the summer and fall camp, because while physical readiness and experience are on his side, synergy (pardon the outdated consulting term) isn’t.
Hawkins is the one guy expected to step in and start right away. If he does what we think he is capable of, it will help to solidify our OL. Being able to move Hopkins back inside is a BIG gain for us. I think he will mesh just fine with our guys. One more year with this OL and it could develop into one of the best in the country come 2013.
Contrary to popular belief, this year isn’t the year we expect him to make HUGE strides. He is competing for the backup slot against McCoy. I don’t think Brewer comes in and overtakes Ash. To many things Brewer needs to get adjusted to…speed, offensive scheme, S&C, reads, etc…
His biggest expectation should be to come in and learn as much as he can while getting adjusted then apply it in 2013.
The defense will be hands down the best unit in the Big 12 and in the top 2 or 3 in the nation next year. How far the team goes depends on the offense, and how far the offense goes depends on Ash’s development as a passer and the OLine’s run blocking.
Without a group of playmaking WRs, it looks like the offense will revolve around the RB Cerberus of Bergeron, Brown, & Gray (we don’t get paid unless we get money for you!). That means the line is going to have to be able on occasion to enforce their will on teams and run the ball effectively even when they are expecting it and stacking the box. That’s just not going to happen unless Hawkins shows up big.
I wouldn’t be surprised if none of the non-JUCO early enrollees ever even sniffed the field in 2012.
OU loses their two best playmakers at DE (Alexander and Lewis) and really their best defensive player (Alexander). They get better by losing Travis Lewis if you ask me though. But their DBs are nothing special, and Wort is terribly overrated.
Losing Lewis will be a huge loss. Don't now where you get that from.
I’ve never heard of Wort being that well thought of, let alone overrated. But there’s no way that 0U isn’t worried about a defensive letdown next year. Losing just too many playmakers. The thing about 0U is that, if they get a little bit out of sorts, i.e. a big injury, lots of little injuries, and stars leaving, then they start making mistakes. Not having all your talent in place is going to hurt any team out there but it just seems to bother 0U’s defense a little more than most. They like to intimidate and when folks aren’t intimidated, they don’t click right.
The Wort comment? It may be because I live in Oklahoma and hear local sports radio, but everyone around here thinks very highly of Wort.
My comment was in agreement with CMDR as I think OU will be solid on defense simply due to the amount of talent but I don’t worry about them being CLOSE to our defense next year.
Travis Lewis was all bark and no bite, if you ask me. A liability in coverage. Tackling machine, for sure though. He called out his own teammates (right or wrong makes no difference to the players) and is generally a terrible leader. He’s BEEN a great player. Not this year.
What are the implications of an scholarship athlete enrolling early? Does he/she get immediate scholarship money or must they wait until their classes start in the fall to get financial assistance?
Any time limits on this in regards to a normal 4 year scholarship?
They are enrolled in classes for the spring 2012 semester, so they’re already students, and their scholarships apply even in semesters they’re not competing.
A) McCoy keeps his backup role, and Brewer never sees the field in 21012 and gets to redshirt.
or
B) Brewer is clearly superior to McCoy, earns the backup role, and gets to see the field some in 2012. McCoy is clip board guy assuming he doesn’t flee to FCS.
I’m sure the majority decision is “A,” but I’m wondering if getting the best backup QB out on the field some isn’t worth the lost year of eligibility considering the 2013 class and that it’s unlikely Brewer will be a four year starter.
However, if Brewer really IS awesome maybe it’s worth preserving his eligibility.
I can’t decide myself, but I just don’t see how McCoy can outperform Brewer at this point.
It might be unlikely that Brewer ends up a four-year starter
But remember that if Ash turns out to be any good, he has two more seasons, so that would put Brewer in the starting job no sooner than 2014, when he would be a redshirt-sophomore (if he redshirts in 2012). He’d be a three-year starter then. It’s always possible he could go pro after his junior year, but you can’t plan your redshirt/backup strategy around that with a guy who hasn’t even played a down in CFB yet.
Problem is backup QB's almost never get any real experience running the full playbook
It doesn’t happen at Texas or anywhere else. The most you are ever going to see is a specific set of plays for that QB, like Tebow’s freshman year or the Ash packages at the beginning of 2011.
IMO that is not worth losing a year of eligibility. Keep in mind that if it becomes apparent that Brewer will not beat out Ash spring of 2013, and there is only one year seperating them, then that could trigger another QB transfer (especially since Brewer could then use his redshirt year during the year he sits out).
It just seems better all the way around of Brewer can redshirt.
Assuming Brewer is better than McCoy (and if he isn’t, UT coaches need to give all their money back and go find another career) then would you rather have McCoy or the assumed-to-be-better Brewer as backup? It’ll be tempting to use the better option as soon as possible.
I think the ideal situation would be to plan a redshirt for Brewer, but obviously be willing to burn it if Ash and McCoy both continue to be liabilities
There’s been a signifcant difference in the level of play of redshirt qbs ( vy,colt, applewhite) to non redshirts (simms, gilbert, case+ ash). If brewer plays next season the same thing will happen, I think its worth waiting. Hopefully ash( or mccoy) make enough strides to be way ahead of brewer
But one has to do what one has to do. If Ash and McCoy were to continue being liabilities, and Brewer were impressing to the point that coaches were to think he’d offer a clearly-better chance of winning, Brewer would almost certainly be the QB. But I don’t think it’s likely that such an alignment of the stars will take place. Consequently I think Texas should redshirt Brewer, and just let Ash and McCoy do the best they can. I don’t think Brewer’s going to step into the offense and out-perform even those two.
I mean, really, what is there to lose next year? Let Conner sit tight and throw Ash (who has played admirably for a true freshman. Working on a stats article about this but true freshman QBs are really, really bad) and McCoy in there.
Then let Brewer step in the year after, when we will actually likely be favored to win the Big 12.
It's entirely possible Brewer could take ove in 2013
But it’s really hard to know how things will look that year. I don’t know why Texas should be considered likely to be favored to win the conference that year if the team has to resort to a redshirt-freshman QB, although right now it looks like only a couple of likely 2012 starters (Okafor and Vaccaro) and some potential role-players (Goodwin, Monroe, Grant) will be gone at that point. Really, it’s just anyone’s guess how the team will look 500 days from now, so it’s hard for me to buy into the notion that Texas is a likely favorite when there’s no QB in sight.
Plan A is to stick to Ash/McCoy, and play Brewer only if one of them gets hurt. Texas is not going to make a run at anything meaningful next year, we really should be looking towards 2013.
texas does not have the oline defth to make a run at anythign for the next three years. when you have three running backs get hurt because their oline can’t protect them, you don’t have a good team. if you can’t see that i don’t know what to tell you.
Brewer beats out McCoy and is need for backup QB. He then redshirts as a soph if he cannot beat Ash and we get a JUCO. If he is truly a significantly better option than Case then we have no choice but to burn his shirt. In addition, if he is clearly superior to Case he is prolly superior to Ash as well. IMHO I think Ash demonstrated he is a better long term option and is more physically gifted than Case but never demonstrated he is superior on game day on a consistent basis.
“I think Ash demonstrated he is a better long term option and is more physically gifted than Case but never demonstrated he is superior on game day on a consistent basis.”
Wow, at least somebody‘s paying attention to the games. Until Ash separates himself, Case won’t be a permanent clipboard holder. And, Brewer sure as heck ain’t gonna be a contributor next season.
It's a good point that he didn't separate himself completely from McCoy.
But a LOT is to be said about McCoy not playing a single snap after Mack said he would play all week. I think Ash separated himself during the bowl game.
According the everyone’s favorite rumor mill, coaches told McCoy before the bowl that he wouldn’t play. If true, it would seem an indication of 2009-like QB anointment.
figuring Mack was asked about it during the game as well and he didn’t rule it out. I’ll go by what Mack actually said and make a safer guess that Ash separated himself during bowl practices and during the bowl game itself.
I don't think there is a "safer guess" out there. It's very hard to figure.
Yeah, I sure wish we all knew the truth behind what was going on in this situation. From my perspective, not playing McCoy in the bowl game had more to do with just maintaining consistency in a tight winnable game w/ Cal – if we just stayed consistent on that side of the ball. It certainly didn’t have anything to do with Ash having a “hot hand” or anything … because he didn’t. After the final 2 games that McCoy had – how they ended vs. aggy and how they started vs. Baylor – it made no sense to not play him at all. He’s been the better passer.
I just can’t get away from the fact that neither guy has separated himself from the other. At this point, it’s just pointless to try & play one guy full-time while the other sits entirely.
Keeping consistency could be it. But I don’t think so. Mack has tons of integrity and he said, all week, that McCoy would play. And he didn’t. You think that really has to do only with consistency? Your window of him being a better passer is fool’s gold. He played mediocre against aggy and helped win the game with a busted defensive play. The rest of the game was negligible at best. Defense and special teams won that game. Against Baylor, he threw the ball he’s good at throwing (across the middle) to a track star. I will admit, it was a good throw though.
Yes to this. Which puts even more evidence behind the peculiarity of Case not playing at all.
Quote fail. I meant to quote your sentence that said “it made no sense not play him at all”. My point was, it makes no sense that he didn’t play, especially after Mack said he would. So what’s the most likely reason why? Consistency? I don’t think so.
Mack learned last seasson that you got to RS true freshman QB’s. Other positions can possible start, but not QB’s. The kids just need an extra year to learn the speed of the college game. Brewer will be RS next year and its for the best. Just imagine if V. Young had started his freshman year. He didn’t figure out how to throw untill three years later!!! Ash will be just fine next season. You have got to REMEMBER, he was a TRUE FRESHMAN!!!
B, and I'll use another Big 12 example to back my opinion.
Missouri let freshman Chase Daniel backup Brad Smith. Chase git his feet wet and even saved their bacon against Iowa State. He was then ready to start the next year after Smith graduated.
Missouri then let freshman Blaine Gabbert backup Chase Daniel. He did not play a lot, but he watched the master from up close and was ready to start the next year when Daniel left.
Missouri then let freshman James Franklin backup Blaine Gabbert. He played sparingly, but was ready to take over the team this year.
All three sophomore starters led Missouri-level talent to 8-5 records. Daniel and Gabbert did better their next seasons. The hope we have in Columbia is that Franklin is ready to do the same in 2012.
Pinkel believes in playing the best players, true freshmen or not, and getting them as ready as can be to be the next player to fill a spot in the starting lineup.
So let Brewer be the backup if he can beat McCoy for the spot. I bet you’ll be glad you did.
There are many factors that could have changed the course of the brief Gilbert era. Whether it was mostly Gilbert himself or not who drove his poor performance, he certainly was the player who ended the inertia of Texas football in the Mack era. Whether the changes turn out to have been good ones or not, which I caution all to recognize is still very arguable, GG was the impetus. He was the program-changer.
then use McCoy as backup & redshirt Brewer. I’m assuming your question is based upon McCoy having made little or no improvement. If Ash must be replaced the better of Brewer or McCoy plays which your question states is Brewer. In other words if the game is on the line Brewer plays. If the backup is never in a game where the outcome is in doubt play McCoy.
Yes, I'm making the assumption that McCoy is a lost cause and will not improve significantly
enough to matter. He will be a junior and will have to improve so many things to make an impact.
And I’m taking into consideration that he put out feelers and no school wanted him. I’m using his rejection as solid evidence that he has no further upside.
it’s an issue of “where there’s smoke, there’s fire”. Do you really not believe even a little bit that he was interested in transferring out, didn’t want to go back into the OU game, told teammates at the bowl practices he was out, etc etc? I mean, there’s just too many instances for ALL of them to be untrue.
I think it's interesting that all the rumors are apparently from the same source, and funneled through the same vessel
Besides, I don’t believe I ever saw any of those reports say that the reason McCoy didn’t transfer was due to zero interest. Maybe he was interested in transferring, and maybe he wasn’t, but if he was and put out feelers, it’s a stretch to think it was because there was zero interest anywhere in the NCAA.
More just taking potshots and rumors and hypotheses that are too often presented as fact. I’d really be glad if ANY quarterback were to start thirteen games, throw for 25TD, <15INT, and 2500+yds. Actually even those numbers aren’t critical, because if the running game were so dominant as to be able to complement defensive efforts to the tune of ten or more wins, that’d be excellent.
Seriously, a QB who could play like Colt did as a sophomore would look like a real blessing right now.
"Hope ... is a good thing, maybe the best of things."
But it sure don’t apply to football. Performance does, however. All we know is that Ash struggled through to 4 TDs, 8 INTs, and 56% completions. Colt-ish he isn’t.
The point is that Ash has just as many performance issues ...
… as everyone claims Case has. Neither guy is even close to the natural passer that Colt was. I definitely hope that both guys end up being Big 12* players of the year but we’ve got to realize that Ash is currently just as limited as Case is. Freshman or Sophomore – it doesn’t matter – each has already shown their skillset or lack thereof. Let’s not praise one of ’em and not include the other.
Just pointing out facts, and calling out McCoy for what he is as a QB. Just because I point out the fact that Ash started as a freshman and looked like a freshman, doesn’t mean I’m praising him. Don’t get those confused.
Is that Ash’s current limitations (decision making, slow reads, accuracy) are all indicative of a true freshman and are correctable with coaching and reps. To a small degree he looked to have improved on each of these in the bowl game.
McCoy may very well develop a better pocket awareness and decision making with more coaching, but I just don’t see his arm getting significantly stronger. Also, he has had more time to develop than Ash (2nd year in the program and a year older), and I’m going to guess he has had significantly more coaching since his dad was his high school coach and his brother is an NFL QB.
Reaching to think that a kid who grew up in a football family
With a coach as a dad and a brother who was at a Div-1 footbal program for 5 years and then an NFL team for 4 years, has had more coaching than a kid without all of those same advantages? Thinking they are on equal footing for the last 6-7 years is what is reaching.
That would be like saying Jaxson Shipley hasn’t rec’d more coaching than D. White.
is critical. With our expected D, and B-B-G. We don’t necessarily need any flashy numbers in the TD or yds department from our QB(s). Just limiting turnovers, if we do that we should be fine.
I don't think those last names are suitable for that
Just get it over with: stick Overstreet at QB and call him and BBG the Four Horsemen.
First horse (white), signifying conquest: Malcolm Brown, the starter. And he shall break into the second level of the defense, and shall bring the linebackers to their knees.
Second horse (red), signifying war and bloodshed: Joe Bergeron. And he shall bloody the defense’s collective nose. The cheerleaders shall throw themselves upon the turf and beg for mercy for the front seven, but mercy shall not be theirs.
Third horse (black), signifying famine: Jalen Overstreet. And he shall protect the ball mightily, limiting turnovers, lest the anger of Mack shall be upon the very green of the grass.
Fourth horse (pale), signifying death: Jonathan Gray. And he shall break into the secondary, causing every safety and cornerback to curse the ground upon which he falls in attempts to tackle, but the tackle shall not be his. Yea, the tackle shall belong to the offensive line, who shall put the front seven under its feet, where there shall be much shame for him who is pancaked into the dust.
What if we one day find out Ash’s dad was the one who started all the McCoy not wanting to go in rumors? Brad McCoy 2.0 anyone?
But I agree its a stretch to say 0 interest, teams in the Sunbelt/ MAC/ CUSA probably showed some interest in him. And he could probably be a viable starting QB in either of those conferences. But thats probably it, not like if Ash tried to transfer he’d get more looks. Hopefully that changes by the end of 2012
Colorado State, Auburn, Texas, A&M, Arizona. You don’t go from being offered by those schools to getting turned down by Abilene Christian in two years.
Double-posted AND lost the supporting comment, which was about the hyperbolic statements that almost seem to say that Case couldn’t throw the ball ten yards. Not a D1 arm? Preposterous. Not a good D1 arm? Okay, that’s true.
It's not preposterious to say he doesn't have a D1
arm. I wish somebody would make a clip showing his ducks and underthrows (I’m too lazy). He can’t throw an out ball. About the only ball he can throw consistently OK is a ball across the middle.
Case could make all the right reads (he doesn’t) and it wouldn’t matter because he is physically incapable of making the throws.
You can teach Ash (well you can try anyway) to make better reads. You can’t teach Case to grow an arm.
Case is what he is. His ceiling is set by his physical limitations. Ash’s ceiling depends on how well he learns to read defenses and make the right decisions. That’s yet to be determined, but at least there’s a real chance.
“You can teach Ash (well you can try anyway) to make better reads. You can’t teach Case to grow an arm.”
Funny that we just had that exact example unfold before our eyes. I guess there’s more to QB-ing than physical size & strength? Anyone who watched Gilbert struggle w/ reads, etc… has got to appreciate how well Case has done. And to think that he can’t improve his strength is not recognizing how much stronger he got between his 1st 2 years. He still will get stronger and I hope Ash gets better as well.
A QB getting stronger is about toughening up for the physical pounding of college football. To increase mass to be better on the ground and on the run and to take the hits in the pocket.
You throwing arm is your throwing arm and it is what it is.
The throws that Case currently can’t make, he never will be able to. Erasing all outs and PA long balls from the playbook is a serious handicap to any offense.
If there is any measurable that can be consistently improved from year-to-year in football … it is strength. And weightroom work & strength improvements have a huge correllation to passing ability. To say, “…it is what it is” is just nothing that any coach or strength coach would ever say. Also, nothing in his on-field pounding last year would indicate that he is not tough enough for college football. He often took a beating and got up each & every time.
I was pointing out that you were anointing Ash for the very same attributes that Glbert was anointed for – and his shortcomings are the very same flaws that you say Ash has trouble with. Flawed logic.
This is exactly the sort of thing that I have been thinking
I know many roll their eyes anytime a discussion "devolves"into an evaluation of (read: focuses on) intangibles, and would rather get excited about physical capabilities.
Obviously no one’s going to argue that Case has the physical capacity to look like Matthew Stafford or even David Ash when he suits up for a game. He doesn’t have that kind of frame or natural athleticism. But he does have the capacity to be more physically capable than he is, just like his brother showed he did. If he works at it, he can be more durable in the pocket, improve his scrambling and ball-protection abilities, and he can even work on his mechanics. Those aren’t givens, but at the QB position, developing the mental aspects of the game, especially instincts, are at least equally as elusive, so they’re not givens either.
In short, each QB has to work on things, and getting wrapped up in the physicality is no more advisable than getting wrapped up in the mentality.
I am one guy who actually likes both of these kids and hope that both succeed at Texas. Both have shown good & bad things already. Any contribution they provide towards the Longhorns winning games will be appreciated by us all. There’s just no sense in condemning either of ’em to the bench, at this point.
Splitting a QBs reps who needs development is seriously detrimental.
If you want significant improvement, you eventually need to pick a guy to devote the reps and practice time with the 1s to.
Texas already wasted months of QB development time with highly fractured reps, eventually you need to pick a guy and it appears that the safer bet is David Ash, since Case’s problems will never ever be solved by increased practice, but its possible that Ash’s might.
The weightroom does wonders & it already has w/ Case. Splitting QB reps is not seriously detrimental. Anointing one guy over the other for no better performance is.
I’ve said this multiple times now. His arm is his arm. He can get bigger and gain mass to take hits and to improve his ground game. But his arm is his arm.
But both QB’s had an entire year to impress the coaches and prove themselves (actually McCoy has had more than year and Ash has had less). At this point the coaches appear to be favoring one over the other based on what they have actually seen and where they think each player’s ceiling is.
This was not an annointment -it was a competition. Just because you don’t agree with the outcome doesn’t mean it is wrong.
I just enjoy defending a Longhorn who supposedly “doesn’t have a D1 arm”. I’ll go with on-field performance. Y’all can go with “potential”. Again, ad nauseum, neither has separated himself from the other. The coaches have played both equally.
“The coaches appear to be favoring one over the other”
Really? So, this was in the one game after the coaches played mainly Case in the 2 big regular-season-ending games. It’s amazing that you’re privy to Mack’s plan in this area.
And then didn’t take a snap in the bowl game. The team had extensive practice time and it was reported that Ash was getting starters snaps leading up to the bowl game.
Yeah, I’d say the coaches appear to be favoring one over the other at this point.
Comparing him to VY and Bernie Kosar is not. The fact is, Mack said he would play all the way leading up to the game. He didn’t. It turns out Ash was taking the majority of the snaps and played the whole game. Take what you want from that, but it’s pretty obvious.
He says the pecking order right now would be having David taking the first snaps in the spring. That’s not exactly saying that the separation is anything more than it was at any point during the season.
Interesting that he talks about how Young, Colt, and Simms were some of the hardest workers he’d ever seen, and they set the tempo in the off-season.
7 TDs, 4 INTs, 61%, 132 Efficiency Rating, best passer on a solid bowl team, offensive player of the game / engineered game-winning drive in 2nd-to-last game, 356 yards passing in your last game, all-time school record for most passes w/out an INT to start a career at Texas, 3rd-longest streak of any QB ever at Texas, and 1st-team Academic all-Big 12*.
I will be always be thankful he scrambled to allow a FG to beat the Ags.
Not sure I would say he “engineered” that drive but he got it done and that’s all that matters. And he does seem to have some of the on-field moxy Colt had, but his arm, as 40A, mentions is just not D1 quality. And I don’t think it’s something that will change in the offseason. If I’m wrong I’ll gladly eat my words.
Spin a certain way anything can sound good. I mean, let’s reverse it. Best passer on a solid bowl team that wants to (and has) run the ball 80% of the time. Engineered game winning drive on a busted defensive play and almost fumbled the ball. Got yelled at in the same game by an offensive lineman for a crucial delay of game penalty. 356 yards in his last game with 4 interceptions. He threw 1/4 less than any QB in Texas history but did have a few passes without an interception. 1st team Academic Big 12 in a conference not known for academics.
Case may not have the arm strength that we are used to at Texas ...
… but to say he doesn’t have a D1 arm is simply ludicrous. He’s actually pretty comparable to even the great Vince Young in his passing. At least keep it real. He had over 1,000 passing yards last year and a 132 passer rating. By default, he has a D1 arm. We know you’ll tear him down w/ your every word … but at least try to keep it accurate.
VY had a great arm for college and pros. He still throws one of the best deep balls in the league. There is not a single throw that VY can’t make.
Case can’t throw a 10 yard out. He can’t throw a deep ball that’s not a duck.He can’t force a rope into a small window.
Trying to compare Case’s passing with VY is just insane, and demonstrates either intentional ignorance of the facts or gross lack of understanding of the game or what you are seeing.
If Chad Pennington’s arm was strong enough to set records at Marshall, Case McCoy’s arm is strong enough to succeed at Texas. No, it’s probably never going to be good enough to make an NFL scout even think about drafting him, but this is college football.
If the issue is whether McCoy’s a D1-quality QB talent, and a large part of the contention that he isn’t is based on his arm strength, then Chad Pennington is probably a good illustration of how arm strength doesn’t have to be as crippling as some people think.
That McCoy’s never going to be a star QB? That’s probably true. But if the argument is whether he or Ash is the QBOTF, which I believe it is, then Texas is going to have to do the best it can with what it has, because neither of them is likely to ever become a star or even good QB.
… Case is not D1 QB material. I have argued otherwise – and have used measureable stats to support that argument. It’s not an Ash vs. McCoy debate, to me. It’s simply stating an observation that he belongs in D1. Anything other than that is getting off the subject.
the way you want. You keep making comparisons like Case and VY, Case and Kosar, and Case and Flutie. You have to actually watch the games. Case can only make one throw consistently. He can’t throw an out route and he can’t throw a deep ball. He just can’t. No span of time in the weight room will fix an ongoing issue with his mechanics as a QB. He doesn’t have the arm. He will never have the arm.
that the fact of the matter is that he can’t throw an out route crisply. He can’t throw a deep ball. The only throw that he is OK at (over the middle) is more about accuracy than arm strength.
Comparing him to VY has simply made anything you say about this matter laughable. Please try and keep the comparisons accurate.
Comparing him to VY is a great comparison for defending him. I, in no way, think he’ll ever have the running ability or same mastery to dominate a game but it is perfectly legit to be able to compare Case & VY in their passing performance in each’s 2nd year removed from HS. That’s all I was stating. No need for y’all to act like VY was incomparable in his 1st year of playing at UT.
but to say he doesn’t have a D1 arm is simply ludicrous. He’s actually pretty comparable to even the great Vince Young in his passing.
Case showed no where near the arm strength his sophmore season that VY did his RS freshman season. Hell, VY’s arm was stronger his HS senior season. And they aren’t even close.
If the statistics are telling you something that doesn’t jive with your intuition, usually your intuition is right. Also, the statistics really tell you nothing about arm strength, as QBs get credit for their receivers yards after catch.
Besides which, you left out Vince’s 2003 rushing statistics, which look like this:
135 Attempts for 998 yards and 11 TDs for 7.4 yards/rush.
His passing yardage would go up. His INTs would also go up considerably. Not only did he have 7 INTs already, if defenses played him to pass more, they’d drop more into coverage and, thus, confuse the heck out of a RS freshman QB.
There’s really lots of things to consider. He & Case are very comparable in the passing area. That was my point. As far as being a runner & game-changer, there’s no comparison at all.
Let's just get all weird and ASSUME Case and VY were
comparable at first. My argument is that Case has no upside. So starting from equal starting points (remember, we’re getting weird here) do you think Case will win a NC, get drafted first round, become a Pro-Bowler, etc? I know you don’t but please accept my point that Case has practically peaked and we can’t reasonably expect a significant improvement.
It may well turn out that Ash is a bust too (I don’t think so, but it’s possible), but that doesn’t change my evaluation of McCoy.
But to say that McCoy has peaked, in his true sophomore year, is not based at all in reality. So far, he’s improved every year.
Yeah, I do think that Case (or Ash) will have what it takes for UT to win a NC. That’s my opinion – and it happens to be valid. 1st round draft choce; pro-bowl; etc.?! This has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Neither have Ash, Overstreet, Brewer, Swoopes, etc… shown any evidence that this is going to happen with them either.
You are just spinning the argument to make it look nice! Check his stats from 2010! He threw no passes in two games (Rice and FAU)!! Of COURSE he improved because he threw a pass! That’s silly!
What do you expect me to say? It wasn’t his fault that GG was cemented, by the coaches, into playing virtually every down of the season last year. Case hardly played in 2010 and then he improved to the point where he started 5 games, had a 132 QB efficiency rating, and contributed to winning several big games. That is improvement no matter how you define it.
I’ve never believed in the “agree to disagree” statement more than I do right now. And that’s where we’re gonna have to leave it. But, bottom line, my point is that it is just silly to say Case is not a D1 QB when obviously he is. He has the stats & performance to prove it.
Your opinion that Case has what it takes for us to win a NC
is just plain wrong and you have nothing to validate that. The fact of the matter is that after the legend Mack Brown said he would play in the game all the way leading up to the game, he didn’t. After Ash’s not-so-good first half, he still didn’t sniff the field. That’s not a NC winning QB. That’s a bench warmer with a clipboard.
Again, your argument that he “improved” from 2010 to 2011 is built with straw because he didn’t throw a dadgum ball the whole year! a .1 efficiency rate would have been an improvement!
It’s silly to act like Case is as good as you make him out to be, but there is obviously nothing that will help you to understand that. You spin a very small amount of stats (half a year starts) in order to prove that Case is D1 calibre. I hope you feel good with that.
What you’re stating is that it is impossible for a graduating senior HS QB to improve the velocity on his passes past the age of 18. It will never improve in college or in the pros. You sure you want to stick with that argument?
I want you to sit down and think about why Drew Brees can throw a ball harder, faster, and with more zip and velocity than Brian Orakpo and get back to me.
Until you can answer that question you are out of your element.
Stats don’t tell the whole tale and you know it. You are trying to spin it to make it look really nice. But it doesn’t. In no way, shape, or form is McCoy anything like VY when it comes to pocket presence, mobility, arm accuracy, arm strength, intangibles, etc etc etc. You know this.
Watching Colt’s poor pocket presence, dreadful footwork, poor throwing motion, and noodle-arm, it’s not a far stretch to think that the only schools interested in Colt where FCS.
it’s not a stretch at all to think somebody the caliber of Case McCoy didn’t have anything on the transfer market. The guy is simply not a good QB, for anyone D1.
Its not a stretch to think no BCS conference wanted him, but highly doubtful that no school was at all interested. He just was probably looking for a BCS conference school and couldn’t find one.
GG found a school! I’m sure Case could’ve also, I understand case doesn’t have the “arm”. Though he almost completed that 50 yard pass at the end of the kstate game, he threw it well enough to be caught if shipley was the receiver not Davis. Understandbly that is only one instance, but no way the film at texas looked better for gilbert, unless a school wanted to get its defense practice intercepting passes
let Ash play QB in 2012/ will be year of the run/ 2013 MNC
with our (hopefully) great defense they should be worth 7-10 points per game. with our
rbs we should get over 280 yards every game and hopefully score 21 points. i really optimistically see an 12-1 BCS season (poor Cal!) i called our 8-5 season but we should
have beaten mizzou. next year’s home schedule is awful. i feel robbed at what i am going
to have to pay for Longhorn Foundation-season tickets!!
our biggest game TCU??
makes me want to go to Ole Miss and stay in the casinos.
i believe Mack is over this qb ego crap. he wants to win another MNC bad b4 he leaves.
Is there no one here who thinks Case just might quietly go to the weight room for a few months and do all those other things that he needs to do that are within his control to get better, attitude being one of them? Not saying he’ll ever be very good, but I wouldn’t write him off. The UCLA game wasn’t that long ago. He has the McCoy competitive gene, and he can at times display leadership.
He would have done so by now. He will be a redshirt junior and has not shown a difference in throwing mechanics and has zero pocket presence, two of the most important things a QB has to have. Weight room is important, but the other things I mentioned haven’t changed from when he stepped on the campus.
That’s my point. Even without a redshirt (early morning typo) he still has had what, coming on 3 years in the program? And with minimal to none in terms of development, I think it’s safe to say we should move on.
As has been said though, I will gladly eat crow (with tabasco) if I’m wrong on this.
Colt did, but he had showed the signs as a redshirt freshman and even in his worst year (sophomore) looked infinitely better than his little brother. Any kind of comparion between those two that isn’t solely about the last name shouldn’t be taken seriously. They are miles apart.
Colt also had the benefit of an established offense and decent surrounding talent
I think a lack of talent, experience, and conditioning certainly are factors in McCoy’s struggles, just as the lack of talent, experience, and vision are factors in Ash’s, but let’s face it: these guys were both essentially first-year guys in a new system with a position coach and coordinator who is at the very least in his first year of being the offensive decision-maker, or possibly in over his head. I think either Ash or McCoy could be an effective starter, although I don’t think either has the potential to be good enough to be a difference-maker on the way to a BCS championship run. If the team does make such a run with either of them as QB, I believe it will be in spite of, not due to, the QB play (see: LSU).
is a reach. But I will agree, Colt definitely had more to work with. But things you are seeing from McCoy have nothing to do with WRs, offensive line play, etc. The kid has no arm strength, his footwork and throwing mechanics are dreadful. It wouldn’t matter if he had the New England Patriots offensive line and Larry Fitzgerald to throw to.
I’ve seen you make this claim several times now (on this and other threads). Could you elaborate? Perhaps with statistics or examples? I’m not disagreeing with you outright, but I would like to see where you’re coming from. Most of the statistics I’ve looked at show Harsin as having been a pretty significant improvement from the previous coordinator (he who must not be named).
Well, he's coming from being Petersen's understudy at a school that's a big fish in a muddle puddle
Harsin’s trying to start up a system from scratch, and it’s hard work. He may succeed, and he may not. It’s hard to say at this point, because with few exceptions (Briles, Malzahn, Holgorsen, etc.), it usually takes time to get good results.
Again, this is a relative comparison of McCoy vs. Ash
Looking back, the two worst-quarterbacked years in the Mack Brown era were, without question, 2010 and 2011. Comparing Case to Colt isn’t what I’m doing. I’m simply using Colt as an illustration of what a kid with that kind of physical limitation is capable of achieving with some hard work. The real comparison is Case vs. Ash, because that’s the decision coaches are probably going to have to make.
but that’s just me. Again, the Case/Colt comparison is unfair, because although Colt balooned after his sophomore and junior years, it didn’t do anything for his arm strength. He became more mobile for sure, could take some hits, yes. But Colt never had the physical limitations that Case does. Does Colt have an Aaron Rodgers-esque rocket arm? NO, but his arm strength has been and is more than adequate to make the appropriate throws. Case’s isn’t, and will NEVER be.
Its just like pitching in baseball. You can throw a 90 mph fastball or you can’t. An 80 mph fastball guy is never going to get the extra 10 mph in the weight room.
I strongly disagree. Zip on throws comes from having proper mechanics. Footwork, arm angle, motion, consistency, all that. That is what puts zip on a pass.
Right, and neither McCoy nor Ash has had the benefit of time to work on those mechanics
I’m not optimistic it’ll come, so Texas has to make do. Thing is, I’m not arguing that Case is going to be able to develop a strong arm. I’m not sure if you’re under the impression that I am. What I’m saying is that his arm is not necessarily such a limiting factor that he can’t be a better quarterback than David Ash.
If he can’t make the necessary throws (and he has proven that he really can’t) such as out-routes, deep balls, deep slants, etc, then that his a HUGE limiting factor. Moxy doesn’t make those throws. Having a winning mentality doesn’t make those throws. Proper footwork, mechanics, arm work, consistency on every throw…those are the things that make those throws. In Case’s 2 years he has shown ZERO improvement in any aspect of throwing the ball.
Ash has one less year, better natural talent (which includes arm strength) to go along with his natural ability to avoid the pass rush and run. His ceiling is miles higher than Case. McCoy had his chance to make improvements from year 1 to year 2. He didn’t. Ash deserves his turn. The coaches are leaning that way. It doesn’t matter why you think Case didn’t play the bowl game. What matters is that a TRUE FRESHMAN stole the first team snaps from a returning QB and played the whole bowl game despite what the HEAD COACH said leading up to it. You can say he wanted “offensive consistency”, but I would tell you that you are reaching. The proof is in the pudding. Case sat, a true freshman took the snaps and the game. He has way more upside. Case CANNOT be a better QB than Ash.
They’re pretty well dead even right now. It’ll be interesting to see if either one of ’em comes out of the off-season with any major improvement to pull themselves clearly into the lead.
Your'e right. He can DEFINITELY hit next season with a new & improved physical presence.
Any of these guys slamming Case are completely ignoring the fact that he already began his sophomore year drastically improved physically than he was in his freshman year. He was rail thin & very weak as a freshman. Now, he is thicker & tougher and he’s only going to improve in that area. His height is more of a concern right now than his weight is.
I've always wondered what happened to the left side of his face.
With a picture or with a freeze-frame on the TV, I’ve covered up the left side with my hand. On the right side, he’s the spittin’ image of his brother. He might have had Bells Palsy or some other nerve trauma that commonly does this to the face. Good for him, though, that’s it’s never seemed to hold him back.
glad i read almost 200 comments about the early enrollees
oh wait, i read another 200 comments of case vs ash. again. rehashing the same old bullshit. can we please move on as a fan base? together? because im sick of it and im sure there are a fair number of other horns fans who are too. the coaches will make the decisions and until one of us learns that applewhite/harsin read BON, can we please stop trying to convince the other side of which QB is better? and anyone who didnt vote hawkins/moore is just straight wrong unless you think theres a lot of expectations going into next year for the redshirt team to play well.
Obviously we care about what’s going on. Not that I’m saying you don’t, but it’s a hot topic. The other horn fans who are sick of it just don’t respond, they move on to another topic, or they read another post. You should try the same if you are sick of the talk.
This is an open forum for debate. We are doing exactly what this thing was built to do.
Invariably, folks start hammering on Case – which is their prerogative. I don’t care at all about a McCoy vs. Ash debate. I like ‘em both and think they both have value to the ’Horns. But when it starts degrading into a “Case sucks” forum, then I feel the need to speak up. I am often tempted to quit on a debate / discussion / argument – I’m sick of the Ash vs. McCoy debate too – but it’s fine to continue to defend your stance.
I like ‘em both and they both have value to the team. I’ve said this 20 times already. My debate was against the “Case sucks!” or “Case is not a D1 QB.” He’s been productive and has already proved he belongs.
a “case sucks” argument. We don’t think he can do it. I mean, I’m glad you voiced your opinion on the subject, but don’t act like you are some kind of hero because you are defending the player. Because you aren’t.
… and a real ability to fabricate ignorant assumptions to someone’s else’s opinion. There’s really no sense in bein’ a smartass here & tryin’ to make it personal. I doubt you’d act that way in person. It’s okay to realize that opinions always vary. At least have the maturity to respect both the opinion & the person.
y’all talked about case v ash. again. im not going to sit here and defend my point because in my eyes it’s valid. if you have a problem with it, then you have a problem with it. i just wish BON would have a thread with the letter “Q” directly followed by “B” without a montage of comments that rehash the damn arguments over and over again even if they’re not directly related to the topic of the thread. if you’re going to sit here and nit pick your way into some form of “validation” for arguing case v ash(again) then go ahead, good luck to you. on top of being off topic with ash v case, the conversation, as it always does, moved to case is not a D1 QB. can you validate that line of comments as well? i cant. good luck. here’s a suggestion: make a fan post. explain your reasoning behind whatever point you’re trying to make, then respond to comments there. OR you could go back to the post that said that case isn’t transferring and read basically a carbon copy of all the comments made here, just over there in an appropriate place. why do we have to drag out the dead horse to beat it again in every place that the POSITION is mentioned? it’s getting sickening.
Get off the comments? If you want to talk about it, ignore our posts and make your comments. Then come back and find your post to see who replied to it. Not hard.
Under NO circumstance should an article that mentions this….
Connor Brewer — Expected to compete with Case McCoy for the back-up job behind David Ash, the ideal situation would be for Brewer to take a redshirt season to give him time to develop and avoid wasting a year of eligibility, as happened to McCoy. And even though McCoy apparently didn’t receive the news he wanted when he put out transfer feelers, there are still no guarantees that he will be with the team past the spring, increasing the pressure on Brewer to emerge as a capable back-up. There’s also an outside shot that Brewer could give David Ash some serious competition for the starting job, but as polished as Brewer is — more polished than Ash out of high school — expect a transition period as Brewer gets used to the offense and the speed of the Texas defense.
….ever evolve into a discussion about the merits of the QBs on the team. Never, ever, ever. It’s sickening and needs to stop before someone might have to scroll through comments they’re not interested. Oh, the horror. I mean, this has been discussed before on the internet and it simply should not be happening here.
I read the ? differently from you, I think several others did as well.
Which early enrollee is facing the highest expectations?
Thats the ? on the poll. I understand it says something else before that but thats the poll question.So Connor Brewer is an acceptable answer, bc we are all expecting him to save the position and be another Colt.
If the ? was
Which early enrollee is facing the highest expectations this season?
It would be different. That’s how i read it at least
The original Dr Pepper plant in Dublin, TX is being hammered by DrPepper/Snapple Group. Read the details and sign the petition to save a Texas tradition!
Easy choice in the poll
Almost every post and comment I’ve seen mentioning Hawkins seems to assume that he’s going to be able to step right in and start at right or even left tackle. That’s no small task, even for a guy who is almost certainly physically ready for it. I’m really, really glad he’s going to participate in spring practice and be around his teammates from here through the summer and fall camp, because while physical readiness and experience are on his side, synergy (pardon the outdated consulting term) isn’t.
burntorangehorn - January 17, 2012
I agree
Hawkins is the one guy expected to step in and start right away. If he does what we think he is capable of, it will help to solidify our OL. Being able to move Hopkins back inside is a BIG gain for us. I think he will mesh just fine with our guys. One more year with this OL and it could develop into one of the best in the country come 2013.
STLaw - January 17, 2012
Yep, so many things we want to do on offense next year depend on Hawkins panning out quickly
Brewer is more of a contingency plan that we hope we don’t need in 2012.
Horncasting - January 17, 2012
Brewer
Contrary to popular belief, this year isn’t the year we expect him to make HUGE strides. He is competing for the backup slot against McCoy. I don’t think Brewer comes in and overtakes Ash. To many things Brewer needs to get adjusted to…speed, offensive scheme, S&C, reads, etc…
His biggest expectation should be to come in and learn as much as he can while getting adjusted then apply it in 2013.
STLaw - January 17, 2012
Him redshirting
and competing for backup is not set in stone. If it was, we probably have Bo Wallace on campus right now.
40A - January 17, 2012
Its got to be Hawkins
The defense will be hands down the best unit in the Big 12 and in the top 2 or 3 in the nation next year. How far the team goes depends on the offense, and how far the offense goes depends on Ash’s development as a passer and the OLine’s run blocking.
Without a group of playmaking WRs, it looks like the offense will revolve around the RB Cerberus of Bergeron, Brown, & Gray (we don’t get paid unless we get money for you!). That means the line is going to have to be able on occasion to enforce their will on teams and run the ball effectively even when they are expecting it and stacking the box. That’s just not going to happen unless Hawkins shows up big.
I wouldn’t be surprised if none of the non-JUCO early enrollees ever even sniffed the field in 2012.
CMDR - January 17, 2012
Keep in mind OU will almost certainly have a top defense as well
I wouldn’t be surprised if Baylor takes a great leap forward, too. They have some excellent talent at defensive back.
burntorangehorn - January 17, 2012
After you give up 50 pts in your bowl game you can only go up.
2Cor12:9 - January 17, 2012
This.
Baylor has a long way before we can call them a top defense. It’s easy to say they can take a leap forward when ANY leap is automatically forward.
40A - January 17, 2012
Our secondary and DL will be better next year.
How good the defense will be relies on how well the LBs fill the void, and with Hicks leading the group, I like the odds.
OU’s defense will be solid, especially with Stoops back, but they dont have our corners and DEs plus Vaccaro.
Baylor’s defense is and will be hot garbage. Just because they made Case look like a putz, don’t let them fool you into thinking they are any good.
CMDR - January 17, 2012
Exactly.
OU loses their two best playmakers at DE (Alexander and Lewis) and really their best defensive player (Alexander). They get better by losing Travis Lewis if you ask me though. But their DBs are nothing special, and Wort is terribly overrated.
40A - January 17, 2012
Losing Lewis will be a huge loss. Don't now where you get that from.
I’ve never heard of Wort being that well thought of, let alone overrated. But there’s no way that 0U isn’t worried about a defensive letdown next year. Losing just too many playmakers. The thing about 0U is that, if they get a little bit out of sorts, i.e. a big injury, lots of little injuries, and stars leaving, then they start making mistakes. Not having all your talent in place is going to hurt any team out there but it just seems to bother 0U’s defense a little more than most. They like to intimidate and when folks aren’t intimidated, they don’t click right.
robthecob - January 17, 2012
Don't know where I get what from?
The Wort comment? It may be because I live in Oklahoma and hear local sports radio, but everyone around here thinks very highly of Wort.
My comment was in agreement with CMDR as I think OU will be solid on defense simply due to the amount of talent but I don’t worry about them being CLOSE to our defense next year.
40A - January 18, 2012
Was referring to you saying they'd get better by losing Lewis.
He’s been a great player & would definitely be better than anybody they have waitin’ in the wings.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
Oh really?
Travis Lewis was all bark and no bite, if you ask me. A liability in coverage. Tackling machine, for sure though. He called out his own teammates (right or wrong makes no difference to the players) and is generally a terrible leader. He’s BEEN a great player. Not this year.
40A - January 18, 2012
So, someone better is waiting in the wings to replace him?
No. It’ll be a new starter, at best.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
calling out his own teammates? problem?
im all for holding people accountable for their play, see: Mason Walters v. Case McCoy.
ibleedburntorange49-9 - January 18, 2012
That's completely different,
than calling them out through the media.
40A - January 18, 2012
Bear DBs
Only Dixon has impressed me.
2th DK - January 18, 2012
I can't find full details,
but I’m pretty sure Brandon Moore redshirted in 2009 (including MNC game with Texas).
He apparently was suspended by Nick Saban in the spring of 2011 (look here) after playing in ’10 as a RS tackle for the Tide.
edsp - January 17, 2012
Yeah, it looks like you're right.
He made three tackles that season. My bad.
Wescott Eberts (GoBR) - January 17, 2012
Question
What are the implications of an scholarship athlete enrolling early? Does he/she get immediate scholarship money or must they wait until their classes start in the fall to get financial assistance?
Any time limits on this in regards to a normal 4 year scholarship?
BAIT - January 17, 2012
They don't start classes in the fall
They are enrolled in classes for the spring 2012 semester, so they’re already students, and their scholarships apply even in semesters they’re not competing.
burntorangehorn - January 17, 2012
(in other words, yes, they're getting their scholarship money for the semester that just started)
If they enroll in summer classes, which I believe many do, they can usually also get financial aid for the summer.
burntorangehorn - January 17, 2012
Scholarship kicks in immediately upon enrollment
Same with summer enrollees.
The NCAA 4 yr limit applies to 4 seasons of football, they don’t use any time up enrolling early.
CMDR - January 17, 2012
So which scenario is better?
A) McCoy keeps his backup role, and Brewer never sees the field in 21012 and gets to redshirt.
or
B) Brewer is clearly superior to McCoy, earns the backup role, and gets to see the field some in 2012. McCoy is clip board guy assuming he doesn’t flee to FCS.
I’m sure the majority decision is “A,” but I’m wondering if getting the best backup QB out on the field some isn’t worth the lost year of eligibility considering the 2013 class and that it’s unlikely Brewer will be a four year starter.
However, if Brewer really IS awesome maybe it’s worth preserving his eligibility.
I can’t decide myself, but I just don’t see how McCoy can outperform Brewer at this point.
WreckerTex - January 17, 2012
It might be unlikely that Brewer ends up a four-year starter
But remember that if Ash turns out to be any good, he has two more seasons, so that would put Brewer in the starting job no sooner than 2014, when he would be a redshirt-sophomore (if he redshirts in 2012). He’d be a three-year starter then. It’s always possible he could go pro after his junior year, but you can’t plan your redshirt/backup strategy around that with a guy who hasn’t even played a down in CFB yet.
burntorangehorn - January 17, 2012
Problem is backup QB's almost never get any real experience running the full playbook
It doesn’t happen at Texas or anywhere else. The most you are ever going to see is a specific set of plays for that QB, like Tebow’s freshman year or the Ash packages at the beginning of 2011.
IMO that is not worth losing a year of eligibility. Keep in mind that if it becomes apparent that Brewer will not beat out Ash spring of 2013, and there is only one year seperating them, then that could trigger another QB transfer (especially since Brewer could then use his redshirt year during the year he sits out).
It just seems better all the way around of Brewer can redshirt.
Horncasting - January 17, 2012
All good points. But let me ask it another way.
Assuming Brewer is better than McCoy (and if he isn’t, UT coaches need to give all their money back and go find another career) then would you rather have McCoy or the assumed-to-be-better Brewer as backup? It’ll be tempting to use the better option as soon as possible.
WreckerTex - January 17, 2012
I think the ideal situation would be to plan a redshirt for Brewer, but obviously be willing to burn it if Ash and McCoy both continue to be liabilities
burntorangehorn - January 17, 2012
I wouldn't do that
But that’s why I’m not coaching.
There’s been a signifcant difference in the level of play of redshirt qbs ( vy,colt, applewhite) to non redshirts (simms, gilbert, case+ ash). If brewer plays next season the same thing will happen, I think its worth waiting. Hopefully ash( or mccoy) make enough strides to be way ahead of brewer
Mclovin1035 - January 17, 2012 via mobile
I tend to agree
But one has to do what one has to do. If Ash and McCoy were to continue being liabilities, and Brewer were impressing to the point that coaches were to think he’d offer a clearly-better chance of winning, Brewer would almost certainly be the QB. But I don’t think it’s likely that such an alignment of the stars will take place. Consequently I think Texas should redshirt Brewer, and just let Ash and McCoy do the best they can. I don’t think Brewer’s going to step into the offense and out-perform even those two.
burntorangehorn - January 17, 2012
Definitely with you here.
I mean, really, what is there to lose next year? Let Conner sit tight and throw Ash (who has played admirably for a true freshman. Working on a stats article about this but true freshman QBs are really, really bad) and McCoy in there.
Then let Brewer step in the year after, when we will actually likely be favored to win the Big 12.
pleaseplaykindle - January 17, 2012
It's entirely possible Brewer could take ove in 2013
But it’s really hard to know how things will look that year. I don’t know why Texas should be considered likely to be favored to win the conference that year if the team has to resort to a redshirt-freshman QB, although right now it looks like only a couple of likely 2012 starters (Okafor and Vaccaro) and some potential role-players (Goodwin, Monroe, Grant) will be gone at that point. Really, it’s just anyone’s guess how the team will look 500 days from now, so it’s hard for me to buy into the notion that Texas is a likely favorite when there’s no QB in sight.
burntorangehorn - January 17, 2012
Playing a true freshman QB is a mistake.
If Brewer plays next year, something went wrong.
Plan A is to stick to Ash/McCoy, and play Brewer only if one of them gets hurt. Texas is not going to make a run at anything meaningful next year, we really should be looking towards 2013.
pleaseplaykindle - January 17, 2012
What? With 500 yards rushing per game the NC is ours to lose!
WreckerTex - January 17, 2012
texas does not have the oline defth to make a run at anythign for the next three years. when you have three running backs get hurt because their oline can’t protect them, you don’t have a good team. if you can’t see that i don’t know what to tell you.
pleaseplaykindle - January 17, 2012
That was my Beergut impersonation.
pleaseplaykindle - January 17, 2012
Well, at least you didn't capitalize Texas.
Pretty good impersonation. Try to sound dumber than that, though.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
That was spot on!
2Cor12:9 - January 18, 2012
What About Option C?
Brewer beats out McCoy and is need for backup QB. He then redshirts as a soph if he cannot beat Ash and we get a JUCO. If he is truly a significantly better option than Case then we have no choice but to burn his shirt. In addition, if he is clearly superior to Case he is prolly superior to Ash as well. IMHO I think Ash demonstrated he is a better long term option and is more physically gifted than Case but never demonstrated he is superior on game day on a consistent basis.
realmccoy - January 17, 2012
Did all the Ash-anointers catch that?
Wow, at least somebody‘s paying attention to the games. Until Ash separates himself, Case won’t be a permanent clipboard holder. And, Brewer sure as heck ain’t gonna be a contributor next season.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
It's a good point that he didn't separate himself completely from McCoy.
But a LOT is to be said about McCoy not playing a single snap after Mack said he would play all week. I think Ash separated himself during the bowl game.
40A - January 18, 2012
during?
According the everyone’s favorite rumor mill, coaches told McCoy before the bowl that he wouldn’t play. If true, it would seem an indication of 2009-like QB anointment.
burntorangehorn - January 18, 2012
I don't know how much that is true
figuring Mack was asked about it during the game as well and he didn’t rule it out. I’ll go by what Mack actually said and make a safer guess that Ash separated himself during bowl practices and during the bowl game itself.
40A - January 18, 2012
I don't think there is a "safer guess" out there. It's very hard to figure.
Yeah, I sure wish we all knew the truth behind what was going on in this situation. From my perspective, not playing McCoy in the bowl game had more to do with just maintaining consistency in a tight winnable game w/ Cal – if we just stayed consistent on that side of the ball. It certainly didn’t have anything to do with Ash having a “hot hand” or anything … because he didn’t. After the final 2 games that McCoy had – how they ended vs. aggy and how they started vs. Baylor – it made no sense to not play him at all. He’s been the better passer.
I just can’t get away from the fact that neither guy has separated himself from the other. At this point, it’s just pointless to try & play one guy full-time while the other sits entirely.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
Sure.
Keeping consistency could be it. But I don’t think so. Mack has tons of integrity and he said, all week, that McCoy would play. And he didn’t. You think that really has to do only with consistency? Your window of him being a better passer is fool’s gold. He played mediocre against aggy and helped win the game with a busted defensive play. The rest of the game was negligible at best. Defense and special teams won that game. Against Baylor, he threw the ball he’s good at throwing (across the middle) to a track star. I will admit, it was a good throw though.
40A - January 18, 2012
Ugh.
Quote fail. I meant to quote your sentence that said “it made no sense not play him at all”. My point was, it makes no sense that he didn’t play, especially after Mack said he would. So what’s the most likely reason why? Consistency? I don’t think so.
40A - January 18, 2012
MB learned his lesson on starting true freshmen
Mack learned last seasson that you got to RS true freshman QB’s. Other positions can possible start, but not QB’s. The kids just need an extra year to learn the speed of the college game. Brewer will be RS next year and its for the best. Just imagine if V. Young had started his freshman year. He didn’t figure out how to throw untill three years later!!! Ash will be just fine next season. You have got to REMEMBER, he was a TRUE FRESHMAN!!!
BigTexFan202 - January 18, 2012
B, and I'll use another Big 12 example to back my opinion.
Missouri let freshman Chase Daniel backup Brad Smith. Chase git his feet wet and even saved their bacon against Iowa State. He was then ready to start the next year after Smith graduated.
Missouri then let freshman Blaine Gabbert backup Chase Daniel. He did not play a lot, but he watched the master from up close and was ready to start the next year when Daniel left.
Missouri then let freshman James Franklin backup Blaine Gabbert. He played sparingly, but was ready to take over the team this year.
All three sophomore starters led Missouri-level talent to 8-5 records. Daniel and Gabbert did better their next seasons. The hope we have in Columbia is that Franklin is ready to do the same in 2012.
Pinkel believes in playing the best players, true freshmen or not, and getting them as ready as can be to be the next player to fill a spot in the starting lineup.
So let Brewer be the backup if he can beat McCoy for the spot. I bet you’ll be glad you did.
Cardina1 - January 18, 2012
This isn't Missouri.
And the last freshman back up I remember who backed up our starting QB and started the next year was one Garrett Gilbert. How did that turn out?
40A - January 18, 2012
Gilbert would have sucked eggs...
…no matter how long he was kept on the bench before first seeing the field.
Cardina1 - January 18, 2012
Perhaps,
but he fits your whole argument up there.
40A - January 18, 2012
Maybe, maybe not
There are many factors that could have changed the course of the brief Gilbert era. Whether it was mostly Gilbert himself or not who drove his poor performance, he certainly was the player who ended the inertia of Texas football in the Mack era. Whether the changes turn out to have been good ones or not, which I caution all to recognize is still very arguable, GG was the impetus. He was the program-changer.
burntorangehorn - January 18, 2012
If all the backup does is mopup
then use McCoy as backup & redshirt Brewer. I’m assuming your question is based upon McCoy having made little or no improvement. If Ash must be replaced the better of Brewer or McCoy plays which your question states is Brewer. In other words if the game is on the line Brewer plays. If the backup is never in a game where the outcome is in doubt play McCoy.
ole tnhorn - January 17, 2012
The McCoy assumption is a good point
It’s entirely possible that the Ash/McCoy jockeying doesn’t hold up. Heck, it didn’t hold up for more than a week or two at a time this past year.
burntorangehorn - January 17, 2012
Yes, I'm making the assumption that McCoy is a lost cause and will not improve significantly
enough to matter. He will be a junior and will have to improve so many things to make an impact.
And I’m taking into consideration that he put out feelers and no school wanted him. I’m using his rejection as solid evidence that he has no further upside.
WreckerTex - January 17, 2012
Not so much taking into consideration, but assuming, right?
burntorangehorn - January 17, 2012
Again,
it’s an issue of “where there’s smoke, there’s fire”. Do you really not believe even a little bit that he was interested in transferring out, didn’t want to go back into the OU game, told teammates at the bowl practices he was out, etc etc? I mean, there’s just too many instances for ALL of them to be untrue.
40A - January 17, 2012
I think it's interesting that all the rumors are apparently from the same source, and funneled through the same vessel
Besides, I don’t believe I ever saw any of those reports say that the reason McCoy didn’t transfer was due to zero interest. Maybe he was interested in transferring, and maybe he wasn’t, but if he was and put out feelers, it’s a stretch to think it was because there was zero interest anywhere in the NCAA.
burntorangehorn - January 17, 2012
Wow, you're really holding out hope for the junior, aren't you?
OK, hope you’re right and he is awesome for the next two years as starting QB. I really do.
But looking at it realistically, I just don’t think that’s a realistic scenario. I think he will have done well just to keep his backup role.
WreckerTex - January 17, 2012
I'm not holding out hope for anyone in particular
More just taking potshots and rumors and hypotheses that are too often presented as fact. I’d really be glad if ANY quarterback were to start thirteen games, throw for 25TD, <15INT, and 2500+yds. Actually even those numbers aren’t critical, because if the running game were so dominant as to be able to complement defensive efforts to the tune of ten or more wins, that’d be excellent.
Seriously, a QB who could play like Colt did as a sophomore would look like a real blessing right now.
burntorangehorn - January 17, 2012
Absolutely. Let's hope Ash (or anyone else for that matter) plays like Colt.
WreckerTex - January 17, 2012
"Hope ... is a good thing, maybe the best of things."
But it sure don’t apply to football. Performance does, however. All we know is that Ash struggled through to 4 TDs, 8 INTs, and 56% completions. Colt-ish he isn’t.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
He's not a sophomore.
He’s a true freshman. By the way, Colt didn’t play any significant snaps his true freshman year. Think about that.
40A - January 18, 2012
And Case and Ash did
burntorangehorn - January 18, 2012
The point is that Ash has just as many performance issues ...
… as everyone claims Case has. Neither guy is even close to the natural passer that Colt was. I definitely hope that both guys end up being Big 12* players of the year but we’ve got to realize that Ash is currently just as limited as Case is. Freshman or Sophomore – it doesn’t matter – each has already shown their skillset or lack thereof. Let’s not praise one of ’em and not include the other.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
Nobody is praising Ash.
Just pointing out facts, and calling out McCoy for what he is as a QB. Just because I point out the fact that Ash started as a freshman and looked like a freshman, doesn’t mean I’m praising him. Don’t get those confused.
40A - January 18, 2012
The difference IMO
Is that Ash’s current limitations (decision making, slow reads, accuracy) are all indicative of a true freshman and are correctable with coaching and reps. To a small degree he looked to have improved on each of these in the bowl game.
McCoy may very well develop a better pocket awareness and decision making with more coaching, but I just don’t see his arm getting significantly stronger. Also, he has had more time to develop than Ash (2nd year in the program and a year older), and I’m going to guess he has had significantly more coaching since his dad was his high school coach and his brother is an NFL QB.
Horncasting - January 18, 2012
+1
My point exactly.
40A - January 18, 2012
Good grief, now you're really reaching.
Yeah, so true. It’s really too bad that Ash and everyone else has suffered so much from a lack of coaching.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
We are reaching???
Coming from the guy who made Case and VY comparisons and NOW Case and Bernie Cosar comparisons? I’m officially done. You are off your rocker.
40A - January 18, 2012
Reaching to think that a kid who grew up in a football family
With a coach as a dad and a brother who was at a Div-1 footbal program for 5 years and then an NFL team for 4 years, has had more coaching than a kid without all of those same advantages? Thinking they are on equal footing for the last 6-7 years is what is reaching.
That would be like saying Jaxson Shipley hasn’t rec’d more coaching than D. White.
Horncasting - January 18, 2012
*NFL team for 2 years
Horncasting - January 18, 2012
Did you see the TD pass to Goodwin, in the bowl?
I don’t think Case could make that throw.
H2Ohorn - January 18, 2012
< 15 INT and Starting all season
is critical. With our expected D, and B-B-G. We don’t necessarily need any flashy numbers in the TD or yds department from our QB(s). Just limiting turnovers, if we do that we should be fine.
Mclovin1035 - January 17, 2012
Can we go ahead and nickname our running attack of Brown, Bergeron, and Gray,
The Law School?
pleaseplaykindle - January 17, 2012
I don't think those last names are suitable for that
Just get it over with: stick Overstreet at QB and call him and BBG the Four Horsemen.
First horse (white), signifying conquest: Malcolm Brown, the starter. And he shall break into the second level of the defense, and shall bring the linebackers to their knees.
Second horse (red), signifying war and bloodshed: Joe Bergeron. And he shall bloody the defense’s collective nose. The cheerleaders shall throw themselves upon the turf and beg for mercy for the front seven, but mercy shall not be theirs.
Third horse (black), signifying famine: Jalen Overstreet. And he shall protect the ball mightily, limiting turnovers, lest the anger of Mack shall be upon the very green of the grass.
Fourth horse (pale), signifying death: Jonathan Gray. And he shall break into the secondary, causing every safety and cornerback to curse the ground upon which he falls in attempts to tackle, but the tackle shall not be his. Yea, the tackle shall belong to the offensive line, who shall put the front seven under its feet, where there shall be much shame for him who is pancaked into the dust.
burntorangehorn - January 17, 2012
A bit melodramatic ... but a lineup we can all look forward to.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
BOH wins the internet for Wednesday, January 18, 2012.
Let it be known.
adt2 - January 18, 2012
Preach on
pleaseplaykindle - January 18, 2012
Well, really I want ANYONE to be awesome at QB for the next two years.
I don’t care if it’s Espinosa.
WreckerTex - January 17, 2012
I agree with all of that
What if we one day find out Ash’s dad was the one who started all the McCoy not wanting to go in rumors? Brad McCoy 2.0 anyone?
But I agree its a stretch to say 0 interest, teams in the Sunbelt/ MAC/ CUSA probably showed some interest in him. And he could probably be a viable starting QB in either of those conferences. But thats probably it, not like if Ash tried to transfer he’d get more looks. Hopefully that changes by the end of 2012
Mclovin1035 - January 17, 2012
I think you're right about those rumors being untrue.
Case had plenty of offers out of high school: http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/player-Case-McCoy-70705
Colorado State, Auburn, Texas, A&M, Arizona. You don’t go from being offered by those schools to getting turned down by Abilene Christian in two years.
pleaseplaykindle - January 17, 2012
Have to disagree with you there. Game film is a vengeful bitch.
When your passes look like a C-17 airdrop, suitors get scarce quickly especially after you’ve been at UT for two years.
WreckerTex - January 17, 2012
Hyperbole is thy name
burntorangehorn - January 17, 2012
Perhaps you mean simile?
Paleface Horn - January 18, 2012
Hmm...nope, hyperbole
McCoy’s arm isn’t strong, but people act like he couldn’t throw the ball ten yards.
burntorangehorn - January 18, 2012
stupid phone
Double-posted AND lost the supporting comment, which was about the hyperbolic statements that almost seem to say that Case couldn’t throw the ball ten yards. Not a D1 arm? Preposterous. Not a good D1 arm? Okay, that’s true.
burntorangehorn - January 18, 2012
It's not preposterious to say he doesn't have a D1
arm. I wish somebody would make a clip showing his ducks and underthrows (I’m too lazy). He can’t throw an out ball. About the only ball he can throw consistently OK is a ball across the middle.
40A - January 18, 2012
The thing is that you keep bashing McCoy in your perception ...
… and yet never acknowledge that Ash is as bad or worse a passer.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
Ash's problem is decision making and reads
Case could make all the right reads (he doesn’t) and it wouldn’t matter because he is physically incapable of making the throws.
You can teach Ash (well you can try anyway) to make better reads. You can’t teach Case to grow an arm.
Case is what he is. His ceiling is set by his physical limitations. Ash’s ceiling depends on how well he learns to read defenses and make the right decisions. That’s yet to be determined, but at least there’s a real chance.
CMDR - January 18, 2012
Eerily similar to the starting QB from last year?
Funny that we just had that exact example unfold before our eyes. I guess there’s more to QB-ing than physical size & strength? Anyone who watched Gilbert struggle w/ reads, etc… has got to appreciate how well Case has done. And to think that he can’t improve his strength is not recognizing how much stronger he got between his 1st 2 years. He still will get stronger and I hope Ash gets better as well.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
No, he will never get stronger
A QB getting stronger is about toughening up for the physical pounding of college football. To increase mass to be better on the ground and on the run and to take the hits in the pocket.
You throwing arm is your throwing arm and it is what it is.
The throws that Case currently can’t make, he never will be able to. Erasing all outs and PA long balls from the playbook is a serious handicap to any offense.
CMDR - January 18, 2012
Totally disagree.
If there is any measurable that can be consistently improved from year-to-year in football … it is strength. And weightroom work & strength improvements have a huge correllation to passing ability. To say, “…it is what it is” is just nothing that any coach or strength coach would ever say. Also, nothing in his on-field pounding last year would indicate that he is not tough enough for college football. He often took a beating and got up each & every time.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
Wrong,
the biggest correlation to passing ability is proper mechanics. Something Case has NEVER shown improvement on.
40A - January 18, 2012
Bernie Kosar is crap, too.
But all he did was win. Case’s mechanics are not as bad as you guys let on but he has still made a marked improvement between his 1st 2 years.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
What evidence do you have for that?
How are you possibly gauging his improvement from last year when he barely even threw a pass in 2010.
Also, the worst game if his short career was the most recent one.
Horncasting - January 18, 2012
And that'd be the same game where ...
… he threw his 1st pick of the entire season and yet still had 356 yards passing. Goes both ways.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
His first pick of the season
Then his second.
Then his third.
Then his fourth.
I can definitely see the improvement you are talking about.
Horncasting - January 18, 2012
"Better than Gilbert"
is not our standard.
CMDR - January 18, 2012
'Twas not my point.
I was pointing out that you were anointing Ash for the very same attributes that Glbert was anointed for – and his shortcomings are the very same flaws that you say Ash has trouble with. Flawed logic.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
This is exactly the sort of thing that I have been thinking
I know many roll their eyes anytime a discussion "devolves"into an evaluation of (read: focuses on) intangibles, and would rather get excited about physical capabilities.
Obviously no one’s going to argue that Case has the physical capacity to look like Matthew Stafford or even David Ash when he suits up for a game. He doesn’t have that kind of frame or natural athleticism. But he does have the capacity to be more physically capable than he is, just like his brother showed he did. If he works at it, he can be more durable in the pocket, improve his scrambling and ball-protection abilities, and he can even work on his mechanics. Those aren’t givens, but at the QB position, developing the mental aspects of the game, especially instincts, are at least equally as elusive, so they’re not givens either.
In short, each QB has to work on things, and getting wrapped up in the physicality is no more advisable than getting wrapped up in the mentality.
burntorangehorn - January 18, 2012
Exactly. Very well said.
Doug Flutie approves of your statement.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
Because Ash isn't the subject
of this thread at this point. I fully acknowledge, and have in the past, that Ash has a long way to go.
40A - January 18, 2012
Thank you. That's all I'm saying.
I am one guy who actually likes both of these kids and hope that both succeed at Texas. Both have shown good & bad things already. Any contribution they provide towards the Longhorns winning games will be appreciated by us all. There’s just no sense in condemning either of ’em to the bench, at this point.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
Right,
I agree. If Case goes out and gets it done, I’ll take my crow gladly.
But it’s the TYPE of inadequacies that give me hope for one over the other.
40A - January 18, 2012
No, disagree slightly
Splitting a QBs reps who needs development is seriously detrimental.
If you want significant improvement, you eventually need to pick a guy to devote the reps and practice time with the 1s to.
Texas already wasted months of QB development time with highly fractured reps, eventually you need to pick a guy and it appears that the safer bet is David Ash, since Case’s problems will never ever be solved by increased practice, but its possible that Ash’s might.
CMDR - January 18, 2012
So, Case can't get stronger?
The weightroom does wonders & it already has w/ Case. Splitting QB reps is not seriously detrimental. Anointing one guy over the other for no better performance is.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
No. No he can't.
I’ve said this multiple times now. His arm is his arm. He can get bigger and gain mass to take hits and to improve his ground game. But his arm is his arm.
CMDR - January 18, 2012
I'd say you're probably right,
but there is some room for discussion:
http://smartfootball.com/uncategorized/have-any-high-profile-quarterbacks-significantly-and-noticeably-improved-their-arm-strength
pleaseplaykindle - January 18, 2012
You can do things like
improve mechanics, arm angle on throws, consistency, footwork, etc in order to get behind a ball better. But this isn’t the case for Case.
40A - January 18, 2012
I know you love to go with the annointing angle
But both QB’s had an entire year to impress the coaches and prove themselves (actually McCoy has had more than year and Ash has had less). At this point the coaches appear to be favoring one over the other based on what they have actually seen and where they think each player’s ceiling is.
This was not an annointment -it was a competition. Just because you don’t agree with the outcome doesn’t mean it is wrong.
Horncasting - January 18, 2012
I don't favor either guy.
I just enjoy defending a Longhorn who supposedly “doesn’t have a D1 arm”. I’ll go with on-field performance. Y’all can go with “potential”. Again, ad nauseum, neither has separated himself from the other. The coaches have played both equally.
Really? So, this was in the one game after the coaches played mainly Case in the 2 big regular-season-ending games. It’s amazing that you’re privy to Mack’s plan in this area.robthecob - January 18, 2012
Case started the last 2 regular season games
And then didn’t take a snap in the bowl game. The team had extensive practice time and it was reported that Ash was getting starters snaps leading up to the bowl game.
Yeah, I’d say the coaches appear to be favoring one over the other at this point.
Horncasting - January 18, 2012
Your defending him is admirable.
Comparing him to VY and Bernie Kosar is not. The fact is, Mack said he would play all the way leading up to the game. He didn’t. It turns out Ash was taking the majority of the snaps and played the whole game. Take what you want from that, but it’s pretty obvious.
40A - January 18, 2012
There doesn't appear to be a real outcome
Neither QB has shown the ability to separate himself clearly, which is why neither QB held the job for more than a game or two at a time.
burntorangehorn - January 18, 2012
No, there was a clear outcome
After a month of bowl practices Ash was named the started in the bowl and afterwards was declared the starter going into spring ball.
Straight from Mack’s mouth that Ash was clear starter going into spring.
CMDR - January 18, 2012
Story? Link?
burntorangehorn - January 18, 2012
Mack's Post Season Press Conference
video link:
http://www.texassports.com/allaccess/?media=290900
Look at GoBR’s first comment:
http://www.burntorangenation.com/2011/12/30/2670769/mack-brown-post-season-press-conference-notes
CMDR - January 18, 2012
Clear starter?
He says the pecking order right now would be having David taking the first snaps in the spring. That’s not exactly saying that the separation is anything more than it was at any point during the season.
Interesting that he talks about how Young, Colt, and Simms were some of the hardest workers he’d ever seen, and they set the tempo in the off-season.
burntorangehorn - January 18, 2012
Definition of simile:
A figure of speech in which two fundamentally unlike things are explicitly compared, usually in a phrase introduced by “like” or “as.”
Now, the following is more likely hyperbole:
Paleface Horn - January 18, 2012
I know what a simile is
But it’s absolutely an exaggeration the way most of these people are describing McCoy’s arm weakness.
burntorangehorn - January 18, 2012
Through research
I have concluded that a simile can include hyperbole.
Paleface Horn - January 18, 2012
Research?!
Is that like science?!
pleaseplaykindle - January 18, 2012
Then I'm glad you agree that I did not incorrectly call it hyperbole
burntorangehorn - January 18, 2012
It was meant to be a hyperbolic simile so I win.
WreckerTex - January 18, 2012
What did you win?
An award for overstating a Longhorn’s weakness?
burntorangehorn - January 18, 2012
Beware the humorless.
WreckerTex - January 18, 2012
and the unduly smug
Paleface Horn - January 19, 2012
*The Case McCoy Golden Arm Trophy
pleaseplaykindle - January 18, 2012
You leave the room for a few hours and everything goes to shit.
Paleface Horn - January 18, 2012
Yeah, you're right. Game film & stats don't lie.
7 TDs, 4 INTs, 61%, 132 Efficiency Rating, best passer on a solid bowl team, offensive player of the game / engineered game-winning drive in 2nd-to-last game, 356 yards passing in your last game, all-time school record for most passes w/out an INT to start a career at Texas, 3rd-longest streak of any QB ever at Texas, and 1st-team Academic all-Big 12*.
Yeah, he’s pretty crappy.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
LOL.
It all looks and sounds really good when you put it that way.
40A - January 18, 2012
I will be always be thankful he scrambled to allow a FG to beat the Ags.
Not sure I would say he “engineered” that drive but he got it done and that’s all that matters. And he does seem to have some of the on-field moxy Colt had, but his arm, as 40A, mentions is just not D1 quality. And I don’t think it’s something that will change in the offseason. If I’m wrong I’ll gladly eat my words.
WreckerTex - January 18, 2012
Exactly.
Spin a certain way anything can sound good. I mean, let’s reverse it. Best passer on a solid bowl team that wants to (and has) run the ball 80% of the time. Engineered game winning drive on a busted defensive play and almost fumbled the ball. Got yelled at in the same game by an offensive lineman for a crucial delay of game penalty. 356 yards in his last game with 4 interceptions. He threw 1/4 less than any QB in Texas history but did have a few passes without an interception. 1st team Academic Big 12 in a conference not known for academics.
40A - January 18, 2012
Case may not have the arm strength that we are used to at Texas ...
… but to say he doesn’t have a D1 arm is simply ludicrous. He’s actually pretty comparable to even the great Vince Young in his passing. At least keep it real. He had over 1,000 passing yards last year and a 132 passer rating. By default, he has a D1 arm. We know you’ll tear him down w/ your every word … but at least try to keep it accurate.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
Don't be ridiculous
VY had a great arm for college and pros. He still throws one of the best deep balls in the league. There is not a single throw that VY can’t make.
Case can’t throw a 10 yard out. He can’t throw a deep ball that’s not a duck.He can’t force a rope into a small window.
Trying to compare Case’s passing with VY is just insane, and demonstrates either intentional ignorance of the facts or gross lack of understanding of the game or what you are seeing.
CMDR - January 18, 2012
More exaggeration on the 10yd. out
If Chad Pennington’s arm was strong enough to set records at Marshall, Case McCoy’s arm is strong enough to succeed at Texas. No, it’s probably never going to be good enough to make an NFL scout even think about drafting him, but this is college football.
burntorangehorn - January 18, 2012
10 yard out is not an exaggeration.
Case cannot make that throw. Chad Pennington can throw harder left handed.
pleaseplaykindle - January 18, 2012
Are you kidding?
Did you watch Pennington at 19?
burntorangehorn - January 18, 2012
Whether or not 19 year old Chad Pennington can throw a 10-yard out. Is this what we’re discussing? Really?
pleaseplaykindle - January 18, 2012
I'm not sure why not
If the issue is whether McCoy’s a D1-quality QB talent, and a large part of the contention that he isn’t is based on his arm strength, then Chad Pennington is probably a good illustration of how arm strength doesn’t have to be as crippling as some people think.
burntorangehorn - January 18, 2012
There is a pretty useful thread on smartfootball about all of this:
http://smartfootball.com/uncategorized/have-any-high-profile-quarterbacks-significantly-and-noticeably-improved-their-arm-strength
Result of the discussion seems to be that arm strength is not a quality many quarterbacks improve upon.
pleaseplaykindle - January 18, 2012
Than he better be deadly accurate.
Pennington was. McCoy isn’t.
40A - January 18, 2012
What are we arguing here?
That McCoy’s never going to be a star QB? That’s probably true. But if the argument is whether he or Ash is the QBOTF, which I believe it is, then Texas is going to have to do the best it can with what it has, because neither of them is likely to ever become a star or even good QB.
burntorangehorn - January 18, 2012
They have stated that ...
… Case is not D1 QB material. I have argued otherwise – and have used measureable stats to support that argument. It’s not an Ash vs. McCoy debate, to me. It’s simply stating an observation that he belongs in D1. Anything other than that is getting off the subject.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
You love to spin the stats
the way you want. You keep making comparisons like Case and VY, Case and Kosar, and Case and Flutie. You have to actually watch the games. Case can only make one throw consistently. He can’t throw an out route and he can’t throw a deep ball. He just can’t. No span of time in the weight room will fix an ongoing issue with his mechanics as a QB. He doesn’t have the arm. He will never have the arm.
40A - January 18, 2012
I'm sorry you can't recognize
that the fact of the matter is that he can’t throw an out route crisply. He can’t throw a deep ball. The only throw that he is OK at (over the middle) is more about accuracy than arm strength.
Comparing him to VY has simply made anything you say about this matter laughable. Please try and keep the comparisons accurate.
40A - January 18, 2012
Oh, yeah? Here's an accurate comparison for ya:
2003, Vince, RS freshmn: 130 rating, 58% completions, 6 TDs, 7 INTs, 96 ypg.
2011, Case, true soph: 132 rating, 61% completions, 7 TDs, 4 INTs, 95 ypg
Comparing him to VY is a great comparison for defending him. I, in no way, think he’ll ever have the running ability or same mastery to dominate a game but it is perfectly legit to be able to compare Case & VY in their passing performance in each’s 2nd year removed from HS. That’s all I was stating. No need for y’all to act like VY was incomparable in his 1st year of playing at UT.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
The argument was about arm strength
Case showed no where near the arm strength his sophmore season that VY did his RS freshman season. Hell, VY’s arm was stronger his HS senior season. And they aren’t even close.
Horncasting - January 18, 2012
So, you're point is that Case doesn't belong in D1 ...
… even though his passing performance is nearly identical, in every way, with VY’s at the same point in their careers?
robthecob - January 18, 2012
No, he doesn't belong in D1 because he has no arm.
Similar stats is not the same as similar performance.
CMDR - January 18, 2012
Do you really not see
the massive hole in this comparison/your argument?
40A - January 18, 2012
As a stats guy,
sometimes you have look beyond numbers.
If the statistics are telling you something that doesn’t jive with your intuition, usually your intuition is right. Also, the statistics really tell you nothing about arm strength, as QBs get credit for their receivers yards after catch.
Besides which, you left out Vince’s 2003 rushing statistics, which look like this:
135 Attempts for 998 yards and 11 TDs for 7.4 yards/rush.
pleaseplaykindle - January 18, 2012
Oh, you're right.
I should have added in VY’s rushing stats when making a comparison about his passing performance. Can’t believe I forgot that.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
Vince ran the ball 135 times as a freshman.
You don’t think that 96 yards per game number would be different if all he did was throw?
pleaseplaykindle - January 18, 2012
Yeah, I think you're right.
His passing yardage would go up. His INTs would also go up considerably. Not only did he have 7 INTs already, if defenses played him to pass more, they’d drop more into coverage and, thus, confuse the heck out of a RS freshman QB.
There’s really lots of things to consider. He & Case are very comparable in the passing area. That was my point. As far as being a runner & game-changer, there’s no comparison at all.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
Let's just get all weird and ASSUME Case and VY were
comparable at first. My argument is that Case has no upside. So starting from equal starting points (remember, we’re getting weird here) do you think Case will win a NC, get drafted first round, become a Pro-Bowler, etc? I know you don’t but please accept my point that Case has practically peaked and we can’t reasonably expect a significant improvement.
It may well turn out that Ash is a bust too (I don’t think so, but it’s possible), but that doesn’t change my evaluation of McCoy.
WreckerTex - January 18, 2012
Your evaluation is noted.
But to say that McCoy has peaked, in his true sophomore year, is not based at all in reality. So far, he’s improved every year.
Yeah, I do think that Case (or Ash) will have what it takes for UT to win a NC. That’s my opinion – and it happens to be valid. 1st round draft choce; pro-bowl; etc.?! This has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Neither have Ash, Overstreet, Brewer, Swoopes, etc… shown any evidence that this is going to happen with them either.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
What!!!?
You are just spinning the argument to make it look nice! Check his stats from 2010! He threw no passes in two games (Rice and FAU)!! Of COURSE he improved because he threw a pass! That’s silly!
40A - January 18, 2012
Why is this spinning an argument?
What do you expect me to say? It wasn’t his fault that GG was cemented, by the coaches, into playing virtually every down of the season last year. Case hardly played in 2010 and then he improved to the point where he started 5 games, had a 132 QB efficiency rating, and contributed to winning several big games. That is improvement no matter how you define it.
I’ve never believed in the “agree to disagree” statement more than I do right now. And that’s where we’re gonna have to leave it. But, bottom line, my point is that it is just silly to say Case is not a D1 QB when obviously he is. He has the stats & performance to prove it.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
Your opinion that Case has what it takes for us to win a NC
is just plain wrong and you have nothing to validate that. The fact of the matter is that after the legend Mack Brown said he would play in the game all the way leading up to the game, he didn’t. After Ash’s not-so-good first half, he still didn’t sniff the field. That’s not a NC winning QB. That’s a bench warmer with a clipboard.
Again, your argument that he “improved” from 2010 to 2011 is built with straw because he didn’t throw a dadgum ball the whole year! a .1 efficiency rate would have been an improvement!
It’s silly to act like Case is as good as you make him out to be, but there is obviously nothing that will help you to understand that. You spin a very small amount of stats (half a year starts) in order to prove that Case is D1 calibre. I hope you feel good with that.
40A - January 18, 2012
Yes, his arm strength has peaked.
A QB’s arm strength out of high school is his arm strength for life.
CMDR - January 18, 2012
Brilliant.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
Whether or not you grasp the concept
Doesn’t make it any less true.
CMDR - January 18, 2012
Oh, it's less true.
What you’re stating is that it is impossible for a graduating senior HS QB to improve the velocity on his passes past the age of 18. It will never improve in college or in the pros. You sure you want to stick with that argument?
robthecob - January 18, 2012
You're just going to have to trust me
Because you obviously don’t get it.
I want you to sit down and think about why Drew Brees can throw a ball harder, faster, and with more zip and velocity than Brian Orakpo and get back to me.
Until you can answer that question you are out of your element.
CMDR - January 18, 2012
Come on man.
Stats don’t tell the whole tale and you know it. You are trying to spin it to make it look really nice. But it doesn’t. In no way, shape, or form is McCoy anything like VY when it comes to pocket presence, mobility, arm accuracy, arm strength, intangibles, etc etc etc. You know this.
40A - January 18, 2012
Wow
I’ve never had a greater disdain for stats than I do at this moment. Do you own a TV?
WreckerTex - January 18, 2012 via mobile
No. Get that weak shit outta here.
VY was incomparable in his 1st year of playing at UT. Atleast as far as Case McCoy is concerned.
CMDR - January 18, 2012
VY HS Highlights
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23uvmfCGXgE&feature=related
VY was making passes in highschool that Case will never be able to make in his wildest dreams.
CMDR - January 18, 2012
I think it's apropo
That Case’s wildest dream is correctly throwing a 10 yard out with velocity.
pleaseplaykindle - January 18, 2012
Garret Gilbert's wildest dream:
Throwing a spiral.
pleaseplaykindle - January 18, 2012
Charlie Weis' wildest dream:
A donut.
I’m here all week folks.
pleaseplaykindle - January 18, 2012
Hah!
40A - January 18, 2012
Holy shitsnacks. That is just wrong. Case is no way equal to VY in passing.
WreckerTex - January 18, 2012
Cody Hawkins
thinks that Case McCoy has a rag arm. His. Arm. Sucks. Period.
Wescott Eberts (GoBR) - January 18, 2012
LOL.
Another coaches kid. Is this a coincidence or…?
40A - January 18, 2012
How do you figure that?
Watching Colt’s poor pocket presence, dreadful footwork, poor throwing motion, and noodle-arm, it’s not a far stretch to think that the only schools interested in Colt where FCS.
40A - January 18, 2012
And yet, he has started 5 games for the University of Texas Longhorns.
Go figure.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
And?
The woefullness of the Case offer (ugh Colt typo) and subsequent playing time is well documented.
40A - January 18, 2012
I mean,
it’s not a stretch at all to think somebody the caliber of Case McCoy didn’t have anything on the transfer market. The guy is simply not a good QB, for anyone D1.
40A - January 18, 2012
C-USA, Sun Belt, MAC
Its not a stretch to think no BCS conference wanted him, but highly doubtful that no school was at all interested. He just was probably looking for a BCS conference school and couldn’t find one.
GG found a school! I’m sure Case could’ve also, I understand case doesn’t have the “arm”. Though he almost completed that 50 yard pass at the end of the kstate game, he threw it well enough to be caught if shipley was the receiver not Davis. Understandbly that is only one instance, but no way the film at texas looked better for gilbert, unless a school wanted to get its defense practice intercepting passes
Mclovin1035 - January 18, 2012
And I would agree with this
WreckerTex - January 17, 2012
let Ash play QB in 2012/ will be year of the run/ 2013 MNC
with our (hopefully) great defense they should be worth 7-10 points per game. with our
rbs we should get over 280 yards every game and hopefully score 21 points. i really optimistically see an 12-1 BCS season (poor Cal!) i called our 8-5 season but we should
have beaten mizzou. next year’s home schedule is awful. i feel robbed at what i am going
to have to pay for Longhorn Foundation-season tickets!!
our biggest game TCU??
makes me want to go to Ole Miss and stay in the casinos.
i believe Mack is over this qb ego crap. he wants to win another MNC bad b4 he leaves.
ut1ou2 - January 17, 2012
WVU should be a home game as well
Horncasting - January 17, 2012
BIG 12 will end the SEC's run, wait and see...
Prediction: Texas goes 9-3 in the regular season in 2012, after the bowl game finish 10-3.
Los Longhorns de Tejas - January 17, 2012
Case
Is there no one here who thinks Case just might quietly go to the weight room for a few months and do all those other things that he needs to do that are within his control to get better, attitude being one of them? Not saying he’ll ever be very good, but I wouldn’t write him off. The UCLA game wasn’t that long ago. He has the McCoy competitive gene, and he can at times display leadership.
2th DK - January 18, 2012
Nope.
He would have done so by now. He will be a redshirt junior and has not shown a difference in throwing mechanics and has zero pocket presence, two of the most important things a QB has to have. Weight room is important, but the other things I mentioned haven’t changed from when he stepped on the campus.
40A - January 18, 2012
Agree (but he didn't redshirt). Another reason why people are making the very
reasonable case that QBs that redshirt perform better overall and that’s why it’s crucial to redshirt Brewer.
WreckerTex - January 18, 2012
Right.
That’s my point. Even without a redshirt (early morning typo) he still has had what, coming on 3 years in the program? And with minimal to none in terms of development, I think it’s safe to say we should move on.
As has been said though, I will gladly eat crow (with tabasco) if I’m wrong on this.
40A - January 18, 2012
He's just passed two calendar years in the program, I believe
burntorangehorn - January 18, 2012
He never redshirted
How could he be a redshirt junior?
Colt came into his third season in the program a far, far more muscular human being than the one that coward Kellen Heard assassinated.
burntorangehorn - January 18, 2012
Sorry redshirt was a typo
Long morning.
40A - January 18, 2012
And yes,
Colt did, but he had showed the signs as a redshirt freshman and even in his worst year (sophomore) looked infinitely better than his little brother. Any kind of comparion between those two that isn’t solely about the last name shouldn’t be taken seriously. They are miles apart.
40A - January 18, 2012
Colt also had the benefit of an established offense and decent surrounding talent
I think a lack of talent, experience, and conditioning certainly are factors in McCoy’s struggles, just as the lack of talent, experience, and vision are factors in Ash’s, but let’s face it: these guys were both essentially first-year guys in a new system with a position coach and coordinator who is at the very least in his first year of being the offensive decision-maker, or possibly in over his head. I think either Ash or McCoy could be an effective starter, although I don’t think either has the potential to be good enough to be a difference-maker on the way to a BCS championship run. If the team does make such a run with either of them as QB, I believe it will be in spite of, not due to, the QB play (see: LSU).
burntorangehorn - January 18, 2012
To say that Harsin is in over his head
is a reach. But I will agree, Colt definitely had more to work with. But things you are seeing from McCoy have nothing to do with WRs, offensive line play, etc. The kid has no arm strength, his footwork and throwing mechanics are dreadful. It wouldn’t matter if he had the New England Patriots offensive line and Larry Fitzgerald to throw to.
40A - January 18, 2012
I’ve seen you make this claim several times now (on this and other threads). Could you elaborate? Perhaps with statistics or examples? I’m not disagreeing with you outright, but I would like to see where you’re coming from. Most of the statistics I’ve looked at show Harsin as having been a pretty significant improvement from the previous coordinator (he who must not be named).
pleaseplaykindle - January 18, 2012
Well, he's coming from being Petersen's understudy at a school that's a big fish in a muddle puddle
Harsin’s trying to start up a system from scratch, and it’s hard work. He may succeed, and he may not. It’s hard to say at this point, because with few exceptions (Briles, Malzahn, Holgorsen, etc.), it usually takes time to get good results.
burntorangehorn - January 18, 2012
Right, I think we agree on all of that.
pleaseplaykindle - January 18, 2012
Again, this is a relative comparison of McCoy vs. Ash
Looking back, the two worst-quarterbacked years in the Mack Brown era were, without question, 2010 and 2011. Comparing Case to Colt isn’t what I’m doing. I’m simply using Colt as an illustration of what a kid with that kind of physical limitation is capable of achieving with some hard work. The real comparison is Case vs. Ash, because that’s the decision coaches are probably going to have to make.
burntorangehorn - January 18, 2012
I think the decision has already been made,
but that’s just me. Again, the Case/Colt comparison is unfair, because although Colt balooned after his sophomore and junior years, it didn’t do anything for his arm strength. He became more mobile for sure, could take some hits, yes. But Colt never had the physical limitations that Case does. Does Colt have an Aaron Rodgers-esque rocket arm? NO, but his arm strength has been and is more than adequate to make the appropriate throws. Case’s isn’t, and will NEVER be.
40A - January 18, 2012
QB "arm strength" has nothing to do with muscles
Well not nothing, but you know what I mean.
Its just like pitching in baseball. You can throw a 90 mph fastball or you can’t. An 80 mph fastball guy is never going to get the extra 10 mph in the weight room.
CMDR - January 18, 2012
It's not a direct correlation, no, but Colt developed better zip as he got bigger in the deltoids
burntorangehorn - January 18, 2012
And Case hasn't
despite getting stronger.
Wescott Eberts (GoBR) - January 18, 2012
Case has gotten stronger?
I’m not seeing it.
burntorangehorn - January 18, 2012
No.
I strongly disagree. Zip on throws comes from having proper mechanics. Footwork, arm angle, motion, consistency, all that. That is what puts zip on a pass.
40A - January 18, 2012
Right, and neither McCoy nor Ash has had the benefit of time to work on those mechanics
I’m not optimistic it’ll come, so Texas has to make do. Thing is, I’m not arguing that Case is going to be able to develop a strong arm. I’m not sure if you’re under the impression that I am. What I’m saying is that his arm is not necessarily such a limiting factor that he can’t be a better quarterback than David Ash.
burntorangehorn - January 18, 2012
But it most certainly is.
If he can’t make the necessary throws (and he has proven that he really can’t) such as out-routes, deep balls, deep slants, etc, then that his a HUGE limiting factor. Moxy doesn’t make those throws. Having a winning mentality doesn’t make those throws. Proper footwork, mechanics, arm work, consistency on every throw…those are the things that make those throws. In Case’s 2 years he has shown ZERO improvement in any aspect of throwing the ball.
Ash has one less year, better natural talent (which includes arm strength) to go along with his natural ability to avoid the pass rush and run. His ceiling is miles higher than Case. McCoy had his chance to make improvements from year 1 to year 2. He didn’t. Ash deserves his turn. The coaches are leaning that way. It doesn’t matter why you think Case didn’t play the bowl game. What matters is that a TRUE FRESHMAN stole the first team snaps from a returning QB and played the whole bowl game despite what the HEAD COACH said leading up to it. You can say he wanted “offensive consistency”, but I would tell you that you are reaching. The proof is in the pudding. Case sat, a true freshman took the snaps and the game. He has way more upside. Case CANNOT be a better QB than Ash.
40A - January 18, 2012
Well said, horn.
They’re pretty well dead even right now. It’ll be interesting to see if either one of ’em comes out of the off-season with any major improvement to pull themselves clearly into the lead.
robthecob - January 19, 2012
Your'e right. He can DEFINITELY hit next season with a new & improved physical presence.
Any of these guys slamming Case are completely ignoring the fact that he already began his sophomore year drastically improved physically than he was in his freshman year. He was rail thin & very weak as a freshman. Now, he is thicker & tougher and he’s only going to improve in that area. His height is more of a concern right now than his weight is.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
I think Case should start because Ash has a stupid haircut.
Just sayin’.
adt2 - January 18, 2012
Yeah, but Ash's entire face is functional
Too far?
Horncasting - January 18, 2012
I've always wondered what happened to the left side of his face.
With a picture or with a freeze-frame on the TV, I’ve covered up the left side with my hand. On the right side, he’s the spittin’ image of his brother. He might have had Bells Palsy or some other nerve trauma that commonly does this to the face. Good for him, though, that’s it’s never seemed to hold him back.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
He had scleroderma.
Wescott Eberts (GoBR) - January 18, 2012
Thanks.
I’ve always wondered about it but have never seen it mentioned or explained anywhere.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
glad i read almost 200 comments about the early enrollees
oh wait, i read another 200 comments of case vs ash. again. rehashing the same old bullshit. can we please move on as a fan base? together? because im sick of it and im sure there are a fair number of other horns fans who are too. the coaches will make the decisions and until one of us learns that applewhite/harsin read BON, can we please stop trying to convince the other side of which QB is better? and anyone who didnt vote hawkins/moore is just straight wrong unless you think theres a lot of expectations going into next year for the redshirt team to play well.
ibleedburntorange49-9 - January 18, 2012
Look man.
Obviously we care about what’s going on. Not that I’m saying you don’t, but it’s a hot topic. The other horn fans who are sick of it just don’t respond, they move on to another topic, or they read another post. You should try the same if you are sick of the talk.
This is an open forum for debate. We are doing exactly what this thing was built to do.
40A - January 18, 2012
Thank you.
Invariably, folks start hammering on Case – which is their prerogative. I don’t care at all about a McCoy vs. Ash debate. I like ‘em both and think they both have value to the ’Horns. But when it starts degrading into a “Case sucks” forum, then I feel the need to speak up. I am often tempted to quit on a debate / discussion / argument – I’m sick of the Ash vs. McCoy debate too – but it’s fine to continue to defend your stance.
Bottom line, if you don’t like it, don’t read it.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
I understand where he's coming from. I opened the thread with nearly 150 new comments
hoping to see people debating our new enrollee’s but get disappointed only to see another McCoy-Ash debate that has gotten rather tiresome.
2Cor12:9 - January 18, 2012
It's the offseason.
You know how it goes.
pleaseplaykindle - January 18, 2012
Believe me, it's a lot more tiresome being trapped in that discussion than just reading it.
Like, ppkindle says below, it’s the off-season. We’re all goin’ stir-crazy.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
Its tiresome
But its all we have to talk about until spring football comes and gives us something real to work from.
CMDR - January 18, 2012
"I don’t care at all about a McCoy vs. Ash debate"
Um, look at the time stamps pal, you started it this time.
People were discussing whether or not Brewer could beat out Case to backup Ash.
CMDR - January 18, 2012
Wrong again, Sherlock.
I like ‘em both and they both have value to the team. I’ve said this 20 times already. My debate was against the “Case sucks!” or “Case is not a D1 QB.” He’s been productive and has already proved he belongs.
robthecob - January 18, 2012
You calling out the "Ash-annointers" was what got the ball rolling on this topic.
Prior to that no one had said Case sucks or mentioned him not being a D1 QB. It was a fairly civil discussion about whether Brewer would redshirt.
Horncasting - January 18, 2012
This never digressed into
a “case sucks” argument. We don’t think he can do it. I mean, I’m glad you voiced your opinion on the subject, but don’t act like you are some kind of hero because you are defending the player. Because you aren’t.
40A - January 18, 2012
Truly, you have a dizzying intellect ...
… and a real ability to fabricate ignorant assumptions to someone’s else’s opinion. There’s really no sense in bein’ a smartass here & tryin’ to make it personal. I doubt you’d act that way in person. It’s okay to realize that opinions always vary. At least have the maturity to respect both the opinion & the person.
robthecob - January 19, 2012
it's a hot topic. fine
why are we talking about the starting QB situation in this particular topic? that was more my point, sorry if i wasn’t clear enough.
ibleedburntorange49-9 - January 18, 2012
So we shouldn't talk about who's going to be starting QB on a sports blog?
LOL.
WreckerTex - January 18, 2012
fine, discuss who is going to be the starting QB
but do it where it’s meant to be done. not under “Texas Football 2012: Early Enrollees Face Differing Expectations”.
ibleedburntorange49-9 - January 18, 2012
Read the article, Grumpalumpagus. First bullet point.
WreckerTex - January 18, 2012
i read it. i wanted to talk about it
y’all talked about case v ash. again. im not going to sit here and defend my point because in my eyes it’s valid. if you have a problem with it, then you have a problem with it. i just wish BON would have a thread with the letter “Q” directly followed by “B” without a montage of comments that rehash the damn arguments over and over again even if they’re not directly related to the topic of the thread. if you’re going to sit here and nit pick your way into some form of “validation” for arguing case v ash(again) then go ahead, good luck to you. on top of being off topic with ash v case, the conversation, as it always does, moved to case is not a D1 QB. can you validate that line of comments as well? i cant. good luck. here’s a suggestion: make a fan post. explain your reasoning behind whatever point you’re trying to make, then respond to comments there. OR you could go back to the post that said that case isn’t transferring and read basically a carbon copy of all the comments made here, just over there in an appropriate place. why do we have to drag out the dead horse to beat it again in every place that the POSITION is mentioned? it’s getting sickening.
ibleedburntorange49-9 - January 18, 2012
Oh my God. Cry me a river. We did want to talk about it. And we will again. Get over it.
WreckerTex - January 18, 2012
Dude. Here's an idea.
Get off the comments? If you want to talk about it, ignore our posts and make your comments. Then come back and find your post to see who replied to it. Not hard.
40A - January 18, 2012
Should we just start running all posts through to make sure they are on the appropriate thread?
Horncasting - January 18, 2012
Apparently so.
Under NO circumstance should an article that mentions this….
….ever evolve into a discussion about the merits of the QBs on the team. Never, ever, ever. It’s sickening and needs to stop before someone might have to scroll through comments they’re not interested. Oh, the horror. I mean, this has been discussed before on the internet and it simply should not be happening here.
WreckerTex - January 18, 2012
About the last sentence
I read the ? differently from you, I think several others did as well.
Which early enrollee is facing the highest expectations?
Thats the ? on the poll. I understand it says something else before that but thats the poll question.So Connor Brewer is an acceptable answer, bc we are all expecting him to save the position and be another Colt.
If the ? was
Which early enrollee is facing the highest expectations this season?
It would be different. That’s how i read it at least
Mclovin1035 - January 18, 2012
fair enough. i read it as this season. after i posted it i figured someone would bring that up
ibleedburntorange49-9 - January 18, 2012
Dublin Dr Pepper Battle!
The original Dr Pepper plant in Dublin, TX is being hammered by DrPepper/Snapple Group. Read the details and sign the petition to save a Texas tradition!
http://www.change.org/petitions/plano-tx-allow-dublin-dr-pepper-bottling-co-to-continue-operations
TripleTee - January 19, 2012
qb
we’re not playing a qb in 2012. there. that covers it.
ut1ou2 - January 20, 2012
You must Login with your SB Nation account and be a member of Burnt Orange Nation to post a comment.